Pixiq

It’s tempting to tell victim #3 that he should have called the Marshall’s bluff and let the Fed back down or become the focus of a wrongful arrest suit. But I sure do understand his reluctance to facing the guy alone, and there’s no telling what kind of retribution the Marshall could bring depending what kinds of contacts he has in other branches of the government.

The solution, of course, is to get a crowd organized as Carlos did to make sure a clear understanding of the law and procedures are crammed down the throat of this jack-booted-thug and his buddies. Or to let things in Denver continue to fester until a more … Jeffersonian … solution cleans up the mess.

Glad to see you picked up on these stories. As a Denver native I can tell you that the Denver PD has been like this for years. I have been a victim of harassment and intimidation before – trust me, if you question their authority they can and will beat the shit out of you.

The only difference now is technology. I was hoping to raise awareness to this issue with an article I penned on my own site (One Defiant Moment Away) – I am very interested to see what happens in both cases. With DeHerrea, the FBI is investigating so we’ll see but I am certainly not holding my breath for “justice”.
SJR recently posted..One Defiant Moment Away

“which has not been reported in the media”

I would like clarification on this issue: Is this supposed to read that this has not been reported TO the media? Or that it has and the media has done nothing about it?

Because, as it stands, you do not state one way or the other whether it was actually reported to anybody or not, and I think it’s a very important distinction.

Carlos, some simple googleing led me to the conclusion that Anthony DeHerrera is the beating victim’s father, and he is a sheriff’s deputy, not the sheriff. The victim’s name is Michael DeHerrera.

I don’t know what in the world is wrong with the cops in the Mark Ashford incident. I can’t believe them. I mean, the guy gave them a prime opportunity to murder his dogs! Did you see them? They were… looking… vicious. Or at least wanting to be near Ashford. Hell, that’s enough cause to murder the dogs. What’s wrong with those cops? They missed their chance!

Denver is the ass hole of the universe, when ever I have business there I get in and out as fast as passable. The cops there have all ways had this reputation, just be thank full they did not murder you for having a can of Coke.

Mockery is the best weapon against authoritarians. They are proud, and cannot endure to be mocked.

Re: #3: Go back with several people and film & take photographs. Mock the hell out of these officers. You know you’re not breaking a law, so don’t worry if they lie to you and say that you are. If they falsely arrest you, sue them for millions of dollars. Don’t be afraid of being arrested (it will happen to all of us eventually as these thugs won’t stop until everyone has been ground under their heel).

Ok, that was my joking advice. My real advice? DO NOT TALK TO COPS EVER, AT ALL, EVEN IF YOU’RE THE VICTIM OF A CRIME. Here’s some guidelines:

1. Leave your driver’s license, credit cars, and all other forms of ID at home with you when you go photographing.

2. DO NOT TALK TO THE POLICE, unless in Colorado you’re required to provide your name. Other than that, SAY NOTHING. Do not answer any of their questions. Ignore them. If they “detain” or “arrest you”, continuously repeat: “I did not break any laws. Am I free to go?” Repeat this until they say you’re free to go or until they falsely arrest you.

3. Carry an small unobtrusive video camera that films everything. You can buy these pretty cheaply for as little as 25 dollars for an hour’s worth of time, or more for much more memory and time. That way, while holding your photo camera in one hand, you’re filming with your video camera tucked into your pocket or over your neck. It will provide evidence for your lawsuit when the police assault you.

4. Bring friends. Backup is always useful.

5. After you get assaulted/arrested, first call a lawyer, and then call the media. Don’t bother to file an “internal report” with the police. Just sue them. Internal reports are whitewash reports designed to protect the cops who broke the law. Just sue them. Prosecutors can play catch-up if they want (but they often never do).

FYI, in the first video, a independent review board recommended that these officers be fired. DPD ignored their recommendation and only suspended them for 3 days. DPD is very dishonest!

A law school professor explains why you should never talk to the police here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=related

It’s doubly true for the Feds. If you talk to the Feds, you’re dead meat. There’s actually a federal law out there that says it’s illegal for anyone to lie to any federal official about anything. If you tell them “the sun rises in the west and sets in the east” you can go to jail. Never, under any circumstances, talk to the Feds.

Few points I picked up from the youtube 720HD video of the first incident:
1) See how the officer is torturing the suspect that is already down before the attack?
2) The other officer who is at the head side of the other suspect actually points out the bystander in cell phone.
3) Where’s the police dash cam videos or did elves take them to never never land?

Ariel,

I’m a little disorientated from your words of support. Give me a minute to process it. Seriously though, thanks.

LJM,

Beating on an unresisting subject is a big difference between taking someone to the ground or using strikes to gain compliance. The fact that you would even summarize those videos in such a way show me that you aren’t real familiar with trying arrest someone. You say the police need to be trained but argue that you are very unfamiliar with the Use of Force Continuum that police officers follow.

If you are wrestling around with someone and they have their hands locked down somewhere are refusing to put them behind their back, it is harder then heck to simply pull their arms behind them. That stuff looks easy on NYPD Blue but it ain’t.

Nationally approved police tactics allow for hard empty hand control (knee strikes, elbow strikes, punches, ect, ect) to major muscle areas while giving loud commands to put your hands behind your back. A couple of things could happen.

1. The pain from the strikes could cause the subject to comply.

2. The strikes could cause the nerves to go numb, softening up the subject and allowing the arms to be manhandled behind his back.

3. The loud verbal commands could sink in and he could realize that he had better listen.

4. The guy doesn’t comply and it looks like the police are beating on someone who isn’t swinging back.

It is important to note that police are allowed to use force higher than that of the resisting subject. For example, if a person is in cuffs and locks his legs out to prevent being put into a police car, an officer can use knee strikes on the guy’s thigh to get that leg to collapse, allowing him to be put in the car. To a bystander such as LJM, this looks like the officer was just beating on a subject but in reality, it is an approved technique used to gain compliance.

Now would I use that technique to get someone in a car? Yeah sometimes I have. Other times I use my knuckles and jam them between the ribs. This causes the body to fold and lets you push them into the car.

Perhaps you should educate yourself a little bit before you make all these statements about good cops and bad cops. When you make such an absolute judgement, it helps to know what you are talking about? Wait what am I saying? You were able to convince some kids to behave. Of course you know what you are talking about.

Ariel,

“JLs “maybe he said he wouldn’t pay” was silly even if germane, which it wasn’t, because the cop doesn’t collect the fine, in many states he doesn’t have to collect a signature either. ”

This is getting off topic but in my area, we are directed to arrest instead of write a ticket if you think the subject will not honor the promise to appear (which is what the signature is for). In most areas, you are technically under arrest for that traffic violation or jaywalking or whatever but you signing that you promise to appear is what lets the officer issue you a citation. Of course this varies from state to state. I am not sure about Colorado.

JL #101,

That was my point actually. You can’t make the statement except in the state you work. So I really shouldn’t have made it so blanket because, again, there is always states that are exceptions. 50 states, 50 variations.

As for your disorientation, if you can process it in a minute, I have failed. This saddens me.

Oh, that “is” is an “are”. And you’re welcome.

Like I said, Johnny, if you think it’s good police work to give concussions to suspects who aren’t fighting, it doesn’t matter what “approved police tactics” are. Only bad cops think that it’s good police work when you give concussions to suspects who aren’t fighting back.

Hmm…It’s obvious that you didn’t read a single word I’ve written. You are also refusing to answer my questions towards you. Now why is that?

Maybe you realize deep down that it’s not as simple as you like to make it out to be. Or maybe you are just narrow minded. Either way, you certainly aren’t interested in a discussion.

Ariel #99,

Let me try to explain why I disagree with you.

“Here’s the problem, and JL has articulated this before, if you resist in any way at anytime, any way at all, even the slightest, then it’s justified to get you under control. Absolute control, absolute authority. It keeps them “safe”. It’s police culture these days.”

It is unnecessary to give someone a concussion who is merely resisting. Anyone who gives a concussion to someone else who isn’t fighting, but merely resisting, hasn’t been trained properly.

“Police culture” has a long, long history of corruption. Fortunately, rates of corruption have been decreasing, but even during the worst periods of corruption, there were good cops who refused to be bad cops, and they were frequently punished for it. But being in a corrupt culture doesn’t excuse an individual for choosing to be corrupt.

“However, they don’t and they are backed by their PD’s procedures. It doesn’t make them bad, it makes them wrong IMHO.”

Let’s be clear. I don’t know enough about Johnny Law to know for sure that he’s a bad person. There’s a difference between being a bad cop and a bad person. And there are different kinds of bad cops.

A bad cop thinks he’s fully trained when he’s not and can’t admit when he’s made a mistake. A bad cop thinks it’s okay to give concussions to suspects who aren’t fighting them. That doesn’t make them bad people, necessarily. But if you take on the power of being a cop and refuse to wield that power with all the responsibility you can, you’re being not just a bad cop, but an irresponsible person.

Of course, lots of bad cops are really bad people.

See http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/ for many, many, many examples, daily, of bad cops who are bad people.

“On the first video, JL gave clear reason as to why he thought this was okay. It was based on his experience on the street and I can’t fault him on that.”

I believe he should be faulted for thinking that it’s perfectly fine to give a concussion to a suspect who isn’t fighting you. His experience on the street is irrelevant to the point of whether or not giving concussions to non-violent suspects is good police work.

“JL is human and I don’t think he is a bad cop, I think the culture he is immersed in has gone wrong.”

Like I said before, I believe the historical evidence available clearly demonstrates that police culture is less corrupt now than ever before in U.S. history. That doesn’t mean it’s at acceptable levels and it doesn’t mean that the police who turn a blind eye to corruption or accept bad training as good training aren’t the biggest part of the problems in today’s police culture.

AS u will see on Nov. 2, people support ‘more’ Laws that enact SAFETY & SECURITY in society. If this means higher taxes to create even a marginal Licensing Program to get further ‘unlicensed’ nuisance Reporters off the street, and out of the way of our Police then Denver should raise Taxes – NOW! People will always consider “taxes” the civilized way to marginal thinking -for a safer tomorrow.

LJM #106,

I’ll be brief. I think you made a number of valid points and good arguments. I believe that the increasing violence and paramilitary nature of the police is the problem (look at how they dress these days, I was wearing a similar work uniform 35 years ago in the military). The “absolute control, absolute authority” at all times leaves no room for normal decency. The corruption is just in another form.

LJM #106,

I go to Injustice Everywhere every day. Been reading it since he started as Injustice in Seattle.

Sydney Carlton, this is the Colorado Law about stop and ID.

16-3-103 – Stopping of suspect.

Top

(1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions. A peace officer shall not require any person who is stopped pursuant to this section to produce or divulge such person’s social security number. The stopping shall not constitute an arrest.(2) When a peace officer has stopped a person for questioning pursuant to this section and reasonably suspects that his personal safety requires it, he may conduct a pat-down search of that person for weapons.

(2) When a peace officer has stopped a person for questioning pursuant to this section and reasonably suspects that his personal safety requires it, he may conduct a pat-down search of that person for weapons.

Now cops in Denver do NOT have the right to ask anyone for your ID or Name UNLESS reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime. PHOTOGRAPHY IS NOT A CRIME! In CO, you can take pictures on a public sidewalk. The cops will try to say you’re breaking the law by taking pictures. You can refuse to give them your name, but stay calm, and when the falsely arrest you, stay calm and make sure you have video proof of the arrest. After you get locked up, contact a lawyer ASAP. Also make sure you have buddies also video taping this event. DPD cops are very dishonest. Just look at the two videos posted here today.

“Johnny Law” said in part..

Johnny Law // Aug 19, 2010 at 4:18 PM

I would argue that most of the folks on this site are just as blinded by their hatred for authority. Of course they (and you) also suffer from their ignorance of police tactics and procedures plus the reasons for those tactics.

Yeah I am going to base my opinions based on my previous training and experiences.

I have to wonder what folks like Jody or RAIL CAR base theirs off of.

——————————————————–

The stupidity of “Johnny Law’s” above statements just boggles ones mind. Since when does it take the “experience of doing something” to know what’s right and what’s wrong?

If we were to act upon (or put into motion) his theory, then it would stand to reason one would have to “train for” and “experience” the results of getting drunk, driving a vehicle and getting into a severe accident to realize drunk driving isn’t the right thing to do.

Or how about smashing someone in the face knocking them to the ground and then proceed (with two or three of your friends), to kick the helpless person over and over again.

At what point does it take (or how many times do you need to do this), to realize you just might be doing something you shouldn’t.

Yep, you’re right “Johnny Law”.. until we do the above, there’s NO way we should consider it wrong when other people (LEO’s) do it.

Rail Car Fan

Yeah, that assertion falls on its face epistemologically, not that that has ever stopped anyone from using it.

@Rail Car Fan

“Or how about smashing someone in the face knocking them to the ground and then proceed (with two or three of your friends), to kick the helpless person over and over again.”

“At what point does it take (or how many times do you need to do this), to realize you just might be doing something you shouldn’t.”

Ah, but there’s the rub. If you’re following “Department Policy,” it can’t be wrong!
Michaelk42 recently posted..Unsurprisingly- Pogan gets no real punishment

@Ariel

Bear in mind if JL thinks you are in an occupation (whether you actually are or not) he looks down upon/thinks is belittling, you know less than nothing.

He takes that assertion fail the extra mile, that one does.
Michaelk42 recently posted..Unsurprisingly- Pogan gets no real punishment

Michael42 #113,

A common human failing.

As to the third part of this article. I would like to suggest that those of us in Denver get together and, as a group, take pictures of this building.

Since this is a court house, the hours of operation are limited to Monday – Friday 8am to 5pm (I think). I’m thinking a gathering at 12:30pm to allow those who work downtown to come over.

If anyone else wants to do this then we can set a date and have some fun photographing a federal court house.

Nice idea, Doug. Some day this week, I hope?

The tendency for bad cops to expand with in a department is not normally the fault of the cops or the department . The responsible lies with the political structure , the politicians and the good old boys who back them. They ignore the corruption because it is to there advantage and they can use it, normally for votes and power. Just so long as the ” good old boys” are not touched. After all who cares what happens to a bunch of peasants.

Roger, it’s true that it runs downhill to a certain extent, but the primary core of the problem is the classic practice of taking care of their own to the point where the general public is screwed.

Us that is true, but the politicians allow it. They are supposed to be in charge and could easily stop it, it only takes definitive orders and punishment if they are not fallowed. But, they are sucking up to the unions for votes. They are not preforming there duty.

Almost forgot, did you guys see the official response to the first video? The department spokesperson LIES that the camera pans away because it’s on “preset”. It pans out and GOES OUT OF FOCUS. That means it’s a human controlling it and he should be charged as an accomplish to the attack itself.
Sorry for yelling but it makes me really mad that they think people are that stupid.

It would be great to pay them based on their performance. Maybe the perpetuation would stop.

How would you measure performance?

Johnny Law,

Keep responding–you bring balance to the discussion. I hate sites where the discussion is just ego stroking with everyone on the same side.

I don’t think you’re right in this case, esp. in your assumption that the video was edited. (I also am not sure where you read that he pushed a police officer.) Also, the officer was using excessive force.

Anyway, people are allowed to be dicks to officers–that’s not a crime.

I read that in the original news link put up by Carlos I believe. As far as the video goes, you have to admit it doesn’t show what happened prior to the first guy being on the ground. Everyone just assumes the officers were arresting him for being on his phone when the truth is he interfered with the original arrest. I wish the video was up for that portion.

Yep, people are allowed to be dicks to police. However I don’t think the guy in the video was charged with aggravated dickishness.

Excessive force is a phrase thrown around alot but I think people here misuse it like they misuse unconstitutional. Just because you personally disagree with a law doesn’t make that law unconstitutional. Same goes for use of force. Just because you don’t like a takedown or a punch thrown by an officer doesn’t make that force excessive.

The courts have ruled that officers don’t have to use the minimum force possible, just that they have to use reasonable force. So even though a wrist lock may work, perhaps the officer deployed OC spray instead. Doesn’t mean it was excessive.

JL: yeah, we don’t know the entire story, but given the video I think it’s up to the officers to make a compelling argument.

Anyway, if this is the case then all LEO should not only welcome video recordings, but have their own recorders. I mean after all, if there was FULL COVERAGE of the whole incident by their own video, and it showed they were acting reasonably, then it would be no problem, right?

As for the excessive force… you don’t think that grabbing someone and throwing them to the ground is excessive? I mean it doesn’t look to me like the guy on the phone is physically resisting. And he KNOWS that he’s next in line to be thrown around, right? If you watch the video again, do you honestly think that wasn’t excessive?

Also, if the video is from the DPD and there is missing footage from the beginning there’s really two possiblities:

1) The footage is not there due to some technical explanation

or more likely

2) The footage has been edited in favor of the DPD

To be more specific about excessive force–maybe the law gives an officer the right to throw someone to the ground if they had pushed the officer 2 minutes earlier (regardless of their current demeanor or resistance), but it still seems excessive in the colloquial sense.

I’m probably not alone in wanting to believe that there is a “reasonable” explanation as to what happened, but it’s really hard to justify what happened. And we all want LEO to be better than the average person–we want them to take the responsibility of their position and be paragons of virtue. So yeah, even if it’s legally justified most of us want to see an officer still trying to do things without force.

JL, performance at that level amounts to operational memorandums, directives, policies, and then following up on them. The creation of these items creates accountability for the administrators and commanders as well as it does for those in the field if and when the pooch is screwed. The problem is that though knowledge of it may exist internally, the public is generally kept out of the loop.

How often have you seen those in charge get away with crap?

JL, LOL if the officers did nothing wrong, why did the Denver Manager of Safety just resign????? It is because the public is not happy with the slap on the wrist them bad cops are getting.

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=149555&catid=339

JL, your wrong again. Cops have to use the least amount of resistance for that given situation to effect an arrest. By your logic, the cops could have used lethal force to make the arrest.

I really want to know where you’re a cop? PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION!!!!! I also think you need to get P.O.S.T. certified again. It seams you have lost touch with reality.

A #127,

Does make a few arguments moot. The body politic is of course always wrong, given that they know nothing about proper police procedures. /Snark

There was absolutely nothing wrong with those two videos. Let me explain to you what I think happened in the first video.

The officers are arresting the first guy on the ground. You can see the second guy on his phone obviously upset. Three officers are on the ground with the first guy and one of those officers is holding his legs down. One of the officers busy with the first guy tell the third officer to arrest the phone guy.

So why was the phone guy arrested? We don’t see what happened just before the guy got on the phone but based on my experience, I am willing to bet the phone guy was either involved in the situation that caused the first arrest or he tried in to get in the way when officers were taking his buddy into custody. They probably had to push him back a couple of times while they got the guy on the ground under control. Once the first guy was under control, they were then able to arrest the phone guy for what had occurred PRIOR to this video. .

You can see the officer talking to the phone guy but he is ignoring him. I’m pretty sure the officer was telling him to put the phone up and put his hands behind his back. The phone guy didn’t want to listen so the officer made him listen. We also don’t know what was being said by the phone guy. Maybe he told the officer to fuck off or said told the officer not to touch him.

We don’t know this for sure but I have been in many situations where someone tried to get all in the middle of an arrest and once I got the first person in custody, I snagged the second one. Edited video such as this would have made those arrests look like I just arrested the person for just standing there. This is another example of a video edited to put the police in a negative light.

Now the second video.

I don’t know why the officers arrested him after apparently writing him a ticket. Maybe he said he wasn’t going to pay it. No clue. However he obviously wasn’t complying with the officers trying to put him in cuffs. You can see him try to spin around on them. Then once he is in cuffs, you see him dig in his pocket and then jerk away when the officers try to get whatever he had away from them.

Seriously folks, there is no misconduct in these videos. You say the guy on the phone is the son of a cop like that means something. Some of the biggest turds I have dealt with were either cops kids or preacher kids. Once again, use of force looks bad even if justified so it just gets everyone in a tizzy.

A #128,

No, JL should not answer where he works. PDs routinely shut down blogs by officers if they ID themselves, even if only by the jurisdiction. He runs a blog, if he IDs here his blog is in jeopardy too. It’s not a good idea.

JL, if the amount of force was appropriate, then why did the officer feel the need to justify it on his police report with a lie?
Dr. Q recently posted..Drags not Drugs- cops drag race teens to keep them off drugs

The employee resigned because he went against his boss. It is not an acknowledgment that the officers should be fired. It’s just city politics at play.

Angelo,

I will grant you that if the officer went and grabbed that guy and threw him on the ground simply for talking on the phone, then yes it was excessive. However if he had just pushed an officer, that does change things. He has already demonstrated he is willing to use force against the police. If I was the officer onscene, I would probably put him on the ground too. He was obviously ignoring the officer. What do you think would have happened if the officer has tried to cuff him in a less forceful way? Maybe a fight?

I was taught to “ask ‘em, tell ‘em, then make ‘em.” That looks like what happened here.

Also, if you really think the video was altered by the PD, why did they release any of it? If you can get rid of some, why show the part that looks the worst (the takedown). Makes no sense.

Dodge,

Every department has directives and policies. How would you measure performance? Lack of use of force? Lack of complaints? Can you measure by using a negative? I just don’t see what you are getting at. I would guess that many of these videos we are talking about were within department policy.

The city politics are in play because there have been several recent apparent excessive force incidents, one of which resulted in the death of a prisoner at the new Denver jail. The new safety manager will review the incidents recorded on the videos available here. To date the authorities have refused to release the surveillance video of the jail incident.
NoelArmourson recently posted..RTD’s 1200 Trash Display Cases

I compare it to blaming the parents of delinquent kids, and the parents not taking ownership of their influence on their kids.

The cause of a lot of problems is the lack of or poor specialized training, particularly in departments of large metropolitan areas. As previously mentioned, it’s easier to zap ‘em, spray ‘em, or beat ‘em.

I’d like to see the training records of these guys.

Dodge,

One thing I can agree with you on is that everyone could use more training on defensive tactics and verbal judo. Unfortunately, there is never enough time or money to train folks to perfection. Honestly, I think you could train people up to the level of ninja masters and there would still be the same amount of complaints.

Some folks just find any use of force by officers to be distasteful.

“What do you think would have happened if the officer has tried to cuff him in a less forceful way? Maybe a fight?”

Maybe, but I think that is an acceptable risk/part of the job, right? That’s the whole reason why officers should garner our respect–they put themselves at risk for doing not only their job, but doing it the right way.

Anyway, I’m originally from Denver, and I used to take martial arts classes with a police officer there. I do know the job requires a bit more pre-emptive self-defense than for the average person. The officer I knew didn’t have an attitude problem, wasn’t arrogant, or anything of the sort, but he did have to physically connect with people to do his job. I totally understand that police officers are human, and they may not be able to make the perfect decision with each and every person.

Despite all that, I think they need to be disciplined appropriately. I make plenty of mistakes in various areas of my life, and I get better at all of those areas a lot faster when I have consequences.