Man Photographs Lifeguard; Police Accuse Him Of Photographing Kids In Bikinis

Police order him to delete photo of lifeguard or face arrest

A member of the popular news aggregator site Reddit was ordered to delete a photo off his phone or be subjected to arrest.

The man goes by citycat23 on Reddit. It is not immediately known where he lives.

He said all he was trying to do was take a picture of an overweight, lazy lifeguard overseeing a bunch of kids to post on Reddit when he was confronted by a cop.

He said he knew his rights were being violated but just went along with it.

I deleted the picture, and walked away. As I walked, I felt pretty spineless. I know I didn't have to delete it. I didn't like what I was accused of, but after hearing so many stories of shit like this going south, I really didn't want to be center stage on the next story of "cop abuses power" on reddit.

This is at least the third incident in recent weeks where police, parents and security guards overreacted to a photographer near kids in public, including a man who was labeled suspicious for photographing his own grandson.

This is how it went down after citycat23 snapped the photo.

Cop: Do you really think it is OKAY to take pictures of little kids in their bikinis?

Me: I'm sorry, what? (I really didn't know what the hell was going on)

Cop: Why were you taking pictures of little kids in their swim suits?

Me: Oh no, total misunderstanding. I saw the lifeguard who, for one - looks like he can't swim, and two- is clearly not doing his job. And I thought it was both funny, and also something that should probably be directed to the pool's manager.

Cop: No sir. He is doing his job. I want to know what you were doing.

Then he asks Reddit readers “what would you have done?’

I would have started recording from my iPhone or Flip as soon as I was confronted.

What would you have done?

Comments

I would have repeated the refrain we should all know by now:
"Am I being detained?"
"I do not consent to any searches or seizures"
"I do not consent to this conversation and will not answer any questions"

Exactly. Good answer.

I might even follow it up with a polite, "its none of your business."

Never talk to the police.

Sometimes honey gets you a lot farther than vinegar. I've had several 90-second encounters with cops that I'm sure could've turned into half-hour messes if I'd followed your advice.

Sure, if the guy has clearly convicted you in his head you want to tread very carefully, quadruply so if you've actually broken the law. Keep focused on what your goal is—"get back to shooting soon" vs. "don't let him find the weed in my pocket" vs. "make a stand" dictate very different courses of action. If you don't know where you want to go it's hard to get there.

In my experience, honey has *never* helped. I've had several half-hour (or more) encounters with police as a result of attempting to be as polite, respectful, and helpful as possible. Perhaps others have found this not to be the case, but in my experience I have never once found that answering police questions has been helpful to me. Perhaps by answering the questions, my answers were helpful to the cop in question to realize that I'm not a threat or breaking any laws, but in nearly every case they should already know that before approaching me in the first place.
So, I'm done with trying to be nice and cooperative. It has led to numerous long conversations full of lies, intimidation, leading questions, word-play traps, slanderous remarks, and not-so-subtle threats that I could/should be publicly shamed, deported, arrested, beaten, or killed.
I'm not anti-cop. There is merely a basic risk assessment process at work. In my experience, good cops heavily outnumber the bad cops, true. But I have no way of knowing ahead of time if the cop is likely to be good or bad, and the risks associated with bad cops heavily outweigh those of good cops. So, all else being equal, I'm inclined to assume an encounter will be a negative one and proceed in a fashion that best protects my rights at the time, and puts me in a better position further down the line. It's easier to refuse answering questions at the beginning than the end of a conversation. And, by not talking, there is nothing I say that can be used to support the cop's initial suspicions.
Also, I'm not as worried about the mess of dealing with a long conversation or possibly being arrested. I'm much more concerned with what happens during, and after the arrest. I do not want to make it any easier to be convicted of anything, nor do I want to be responsible for escalating a situation to a point where the police feel it is necessary to use violence. I will be polite and courteous, by politely declining to answer questions, and courteously explaining that I do not consent to searches.

Sorry, Roger, the days of Norman Rockwell are gone. The police aren't your friends. Don't talk to the police.

Politeness in your refusal doesn't often hurt, but that's as much "honey" as should be offered.

The below video on YouTube pits a law school professor against a police officer - and at the end, the police officer grudgingly admits that, yes, the best course of action when confronted by police is simply not to talk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

It is indeed a fine line. While it may be an honorable goal to attempt to talk to and explain the laws to the police, in general, there is no point. Police don't talk to citizens to learn law. For the most part, police assume you're wrong if you attempt to explain the law, and don't really care.

So while I understand the desire to educate the police, an encounter with them where they have already decided that you are a criminal (and beneath them) is not the correct forum. Instead, I work on the theory of not having any communications with them at all will send them the strongest message.

Don't talk to police.

My first reactions was "spineless indeed" but I don't know. I'm 68 years old and probably would not do well after a good roughing up by the thugs in blue. If I had somebody video taping from a safe distance I'd do as Nathan J suggested above. Its really hard to tell if these "protect and serve" types are just ignorant of the law of if they're just professional assholes.

EDIT: I need to add that I've had many interactions with police officers over the years and about 95% of them have been really positive and I've only dealt with one real a.h. & that makes me wonder just where these buttwipes with a gun and a badge come from.

Assuming your 5% assholes/95% human mix (about my experience too) multiplied by 800,000ish U.S. cops gives you 40,000 jerks to pick from.

The asshole ratio seems to be a little higher with cops, but even if it was only 5% the problem with cops is the other 95% will lie or remain silent to cover up for the "5"%
Just MHO but the asshole ratio with cops seems to be more like 80%, not 5%.

joe

OH MY GOD! Wait till JL sees that he will be fuming.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH OH i cant stop laughing
OH stop my side hurts.

Carlos Miller - Photography is Not a Crime
Pixiq Expert

Anybody who makes comments about killing officers with have their comments deleted, even if you're only joking.

The moderators are already looking out for it.

That's as it should be.

When I see crap like that I always wonder: Are there people really that twisted, or is it anti-photo folks trying to make us look bad?

Well, there are people that twisted, but most of the time I think it's a case of "obvious troll is obvious".

I would have asked..

Is it against the law to photograph kids in swimsuits?
Which law would one violate if they photographed a kid in a swimsuit?

Then I may have asked him if he thought about kids in swimsuits.

I would only ask questions however and be clear that they are questions not statements.

But cops tend to hate someone that's smart. So it's easier to walk away.

You don't ask anything except if you are being detained. If the cop says 'no', then walk away, interaction over. If the cop says 'yes', then ask what crime the cop suspects you have committed or are about to commit. Do not engage in small talk with the cop, do not consent to any search of your belongings, including viewing any photos. Once a cop has approached you for what he views as a crime (even if you know no crime has been committed), the cop is not your friend, and small talk and questioning will not change his or her mind.

Definitely get the badge number or name of the cop and file a formal complaint with the police department. Follow up on that complaint. Be persistent. At the very least, you are wasting the time of the cop's fellow officers as you follow up on your complaint. The original cop wasted your time, so why not keep his or her fellow officers busy.

And don't forget you are fighting for all of our rights, the Constitution, Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness...

If you want to live free you have no option but to stand up to tyrants with badges.

Agree 100%.

joe

How do these commercials on tv with kids in diapers get away with it and adds in magazines.

Two words - BIG MONEY! Two more - It's Legal!

joe

couldn't have said it better!

It is very easy to speculate what we would have done, but I will speculate instead what I could have done.

I have practiced the necessary keystrokes on my phone to snap, save, and transmit home, any picture I take. It takes six keypresses from a cold start, and I can do it in 10-15 seconds. From there, if I am asked to delete a photo, I will simply comply, because by the end of the conversation, the picture will already have made its way to my email inbox.

Checkmate.

"Checkmate"

Not really. You may have your pictures, but from the police officer's perspective he has "won" the encounter (you seemingly deleted the pictures, as he demanded), and is thus emboldened to harass other photographers in the future.

What DavidM said.

You may think you've won, but the officer only learned that innocent people will do what he tells them to do, whether he's right or wrong or ignorant of the law he has sworn to uphold.

The only thing you've done is avoid discomfort at the expense of everyone else's personal liberties.

This is how we should all respond when asked to delete a photo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_58hFhNe2kE&feature=player_embedded

JdL

Quite humorous! Of course, in reality, that would be one of very few places that the subject WOULD have a reasonable expectation of privacy (for those who haven't watched the video, the photographer apparently captures the subject's dick as it's hanging out at a urinal).

The photographer's response when the subject asks him to delete the pic, "Not bloody likely", IS a nice line to throw at busybodies under normal circumstances, out in public.

You're exactly right. I just liked the response and thought the video was pretty funny.

It doesn't help that assholes like Phillip Garrido, the man who was sent away for a long time for kidnapping and holding hostage Jaycee Dugard, was using his wife to video tape little children at the playground and luring them into their van so she could further tape them doing splits for her asshole husband's gratification.

Follow that with journalists (such as CNN's Anderson Cooper) who warn parents to watch out for people taking videos in the park and we are setting up a culture of harass the photographer.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/08/03/exp.AC.drdrew.Garri...

Because of crap like this I am afraid that more people will be finding themselves detained, in spite of their best interests to try and explain themselves and clear their names.

Do not talk to the cops.

I don't get it. If there's nothing obscene about the kids running around in public view in their bikinis, what makes a photograph of same kids somehow obscene? How is the subject matter transformed from innocent to obscene by virtue of being recorded instead of directly viewed?

Because the cop's mind is fucked up!

joe

Or they don't like the compition. For some officers private stable.but not all officers.

Sadly there are assholes like Phillip Garrido who used his wife to videotape little girls at the playground just so he could get his jollies. In the end this just causes more people to be more suspicious of those that are truly just pursuing an innocent hobby.

Officer if you claim that I have broken the law, that I have evidence of that on my camera, your order to delete it is a felony, GET YOUR SUPERVISOR.
AM I being detained? am I free to go? I will not answer any questions without a attorney I may choose to speak to your supervisor when I am filing my complaint.

But then there is Reality, the reality in this strange world is that Sex offenders might as well kill themselves, there lives are over. Prosecutors judge themselves and brag on the golf course about putting innocent people in jail. After all that is the test of a good prosecutor, isn't it. IT is one thing to have bravado. Its another when your whole future might depend on a SHITTY public defender retarded jurors and a good prosecutor.

Taking pics of a federal building is one thing. Add kids and your just being stupid.

Bullshit. Kids should have no exception of having privacy in public any more than adults do now. Also, it seems that you didn't read his post, or you would have noticed that he was taking a picture of the lifeguard, not the kids-person who himself should not even be near any kids trying to be a lifeguard in his physical condition, which is what the guy was trying to capture the photographic evidence of.

Sorry, but this guy is spineless.

"I deleted the picture, and walked away. As I walked, I felt pretty spineless. I know I didn't have to delete it. I didn't like what I was accused of, but after hearing so many stories of shit like this going south, I really didn't want to be center stage on the next story of "cop abuses power" on reddit."

The reason why things like this go south is because police aren't taught that taking pictures is legal and it only furthers their belief that it is illegal when people simply obey. I have no respect for this guy. He knew he didn't have to delete it, and he is one of millions of people who doesn't believe freedom is worth fighting for.

Given that the officer was a woman, and female officers (In my experience from years of observations dating one) tend to be a little crazier than their male counterparts just so people will take them seriously, I don't really blame the guy for wanting to get out of the confrontation as painlessly as possible. I don't know that I would have backed down, but I do consider that there were children around and I wouldn't want to expose them to me telling the cop to go fuck herself with an 18" chainsaw either.

You don't have to say it as "go fuck yourself" but why not let the kids see people standing up against the police. Kids are impressionable and if it goes slightly against what they are taught to love honor and obey the police then something good has come out of it. Why not teach kids that it's right and good to stand up for your rights. Announce it loud for everyone to stop and hear. This officer has stopped me without cause which is against the law, this officer is demanding I delete photos which is against the law, how can this officer uphold the law when she is demanding unlawful things" Say it loud, don't spare kids ears from hearing and learning by example of people standing up for their rights.

Good point, and great idea! I like it.

I would check the law on disturbing the peace before I started yelling in public.

Sorry, already uploaded to Facebook. Have a nice day.

joe

Ohhh its good to laugh every now and then.
onliners are masterpeices of the human language.

As I see it, "THEY" want to keep us afraid of everything to keep us under "THEIR" control. "1984" is near.

Good luck to anyone trying the 'delete it or else' schtick on me; my camera doesn't *have* the ability to delete footage in-camera - as a very deliberate design choice. You can only delete when you hook the drive up to a computer.

Mike

May I ask, what kind of camera is that?

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