Pixiq

This is sick, but not surprising. Have you ever had the occasion to see who they hire to work in these jails? If you think this is bad, check out who are hired in nursing homes, and residential facilities for emotionally disturbed kids. Many of these employees are given fancy little titles like mental health techs and are paid $8 to $9 an hour. They don’t have an ounce of education on treatment but many of them become
“experts” overnight. In my experience in dealing with them, I found two types: One, the ones that wanted to become the patient’s friend by bringing them cigarettes, beer, etc., or in the alternative the power-hungry who picked on certain patients giving them demerits and taking away privileges just because they could. Many times the people working in these facilities are more pathological than the patients and/or inmates. God save us or any of our loved ones from ending up in such a place.

OK I watched it. Here’s the thing. Being a smart ass is fine with your family and friends. When dealing with police? Not a good strategy. “Yes, sir. No, sir.” That’s it. Answer questions calmly and clearly. Provide whatever documentation they request — and not a frick’n fake ID that belonged to your dead sister. I don’t care how screwed up you are on drugs and alcohol — that kind of action is guaranteed to get you arrested.
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When they ask if you are suicidal just say NO. K? No. This woman has a terminal case of dumb-ass. It doesn’t make the officers right, but it will be the death of her if she doesn’t learn how to behave like a normal, law abiding citizen. The tramp stamp just above her rear end, cat fighting with her cousin, belligerent to the officer when he arrived, handing him a fake ID, I’m guessing she has had prior run ins, god only knows what she said or did to the officer to start the badness rolling. Cops are human beings. There are good ones and bad ones. The ones in that film did not look like they were having fun with her.
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I’m torn on this one.

FerfelaBat,

While it might be common sense to simply do what police tell you to do, when they tell you to do it, or else be prepared for a beating, it really doesn’t say much for our rights as citizens.

Cops are human beings, but they also need to have professionalism and responsibility when wearing the badge.

It means they have to be patient when dealing with irrational citizens. It means they have to keep their tempers in check.

While there are many cops who do abide by this professionalism, there are far too many that are unable to control their temper.

This makes them just as irrational as the civilians they are dealing with. This does nothing to diffuse the situation at hand.

She was ultimately charged with “disorderly conduct” and “resisting arrest”, so the fact that she was carrying her sister’s ID or fighting with her cousin were not taken into account when they wrote the arrest report.

As far as her priors go, I did an online check over the weekend, basing it only in her county, and all she had were a couple of speeding tickets and a DUI about ten years ago, if I remember correctly.

There was nothing that indicated she was a habitual offender.

And what does her tattoo have anything to do with anything? Many cops have tattoos.

I’m really surprised that you, as a woman, are torn with this one because as a man, I felt violated watching that video.

If I were a woman cop dealing with a screaming lunatic who had already been in a recent fight, I would want help handling her from a guy. I would not want to be a cop because I don’t want to have to walk into situations like the call that came in on this case. Domestic disputes always always suck ass because there are no innocent parties except the little kids. That’s not just a tattoo. That is a tramp stamp. Tattoos are not cause for arrest, but certain tattoos say something about the person who has had one placed on their body for display. Bikers have symbols indicating how many people they’ve killed, how many women they’ve raped, raping a cop is a special symbol. Tramp stamps? Say something about the person you are dealing with and it’s not a fine upstanding citizen character rec. I don’t believe her handing the cop her sister’s ID was an accident. He probably ran it, called her on her BS and demanded her real ID. From that point on she was going to jail. Should she have been treated the way she was treated? I don’t know. I wasn’t there.
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Just because she is female — doesn’t mean I immediately feel sorry for her. Women can be far meaner and more violent than men. There are women who believe that being female means they should be treated like ladies. You have to act like a lady to be treated like one. Many women fail to understand that.
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I don’t trust the news. It has been eaten by the ratings monster. I want to believe what I see but I find that the amount of truth in a story is always inversely proportional to the degree of outrage it generates. By that formula, this story is probably 80% BS.

“I would want help handling her from a guy. ” I mean a much bigger, much stronger guy. And I say that because odds are she will suffer far less damage.

Regardless of what led up to the arrest, nothing justifies them tearing off her clothes.

Especially male deputies. That is not only a departmental policy violation at Stark, but it any other jail in the United States.

And nothing justifies them leaving her naked in the cell for six hours, which is something the sheriff admits.

Perhaps there is more to the story, but the sheriff is not helping us see the rest of the story because he refuses to release the rest of the video.

And tattoos no longer have the same social stigma they once had. Almost every female under the age of 25 has what you call a “tramp stamp”. It’s a fashion statement or something.

And if she was being so combative where they couldn’t handle her, don’t you think they would have charged her with assault on a police officer?

I guess we’ll eventually find out. And I don’t call it a “tramp stamp” it IS called a Tramp Stamp. And. If you get out of Miami, you will find it’s not a common. Very sexy in a bikini and in the low rise jeans with thong underwear showing. Tramp Stamp. That’s what it’s called. Men and women don’t pierce their tongues to help them eat food either.

When I lived in Arizona, it seemed as if all the girls had those tattoos. I don’t really notice them as much here. Or maybe I’ve just become oblivious to them.

Or more likely, I’m not hitting the party circuits like I used to.

And as far as the tongue piercing goes, I can assure you that a piece of cold metal on a woman’s tongue actually negates from the stimulatory response.

Seriously? Then why do they get them pierced? A dentist friend told me that they get a lot of dental repair business because those barbells break teeth. There has to be some good reason to get one to risk all that damage and pain.

Maybe some guys like them. Or most likely, think they like them because it’s different.

But there is a reason why the tongue is used in place of other body parts in certain intimate acts. It’s soft. It’s moist. It’s sensuous.

But by placing a cold piece of metal on it, it negates the experience.

It’s basically having a foreign object between the tongue and body part.

jones said, If they strapped her down you would be crying about that to.

I don’t think so. If I would have complained about it I would not have suggested it as an alternative. It wouldn’t have been as preferable as a padded cell with clothing on or putting her on some kind of watch.

jones said, This is the problem, they are held civilly accountable and can also be held criminally accountable. You want these men and woman to risk everything they have just so she doesn’t have to go through a humiliating experience. I wouldn’t risk my job or my freedom just to protect her from some embarrassment she brought upon herself.

Of course people working in the jail have to be civilly and criminally liable for what they do and don’t do. How else could we expect them to respect any type of standard of care if they weren’t. Of course they should have to risk losing their houses. When I get in my car and drive it around I’m criminally and civilly liable for how I operate it. It’s time that all forms of law enforcement start being held personally accountable. Maybe, just maybe they will think twice before the do something stupid.

Duane – Of course people working in the jail have to be civilly and criminally liable for what they do and don’t do. How else could we expect them to respect any type of standard of care if they weren’t. Of course they should have to risk losing their houses. When I get in my car and drive it around I’m criminally and civilly liable for how I operate it. It’s time that all forms of law enforcement start being held personally accountable. Maybe, just maybe they will think twice before the do something stupid.

Duane, what I meant by risking their job/freedom was that is what they would be risking by not doing what they did. If they didn’t follow orders and she killed herself they would be fired and probably sent to prison themselves.

Personally I don’t think Hope Steffey would have killed herself if they put her in a cell with her clothes on, however, I would not risk my livelihood and my freedom on it.

John, I said “probably” because I have done strip searches and was never meant with any resistance, so based on my experience, strip searches are not confrontational.

Wow, let me read that again, we both think that based on what we know, Hope wouldn’t now have killed herself with her clothing on. I do want to say one other thing on the clothing, if they took her belt and her shoelaces I wouldn’t be upset in the least unless they tossed her to the ground to take them from her.

jones, I guess my problem and your problem with what happened are also about the same but I don’t really know for sure.

If the guards were “following orders” please take my comments to refer to those giving the orders. If the guards were making it up as they went along please take my comments to be directed at the guards.

I’m very upset at the treatment she recieved. I think that treatment was not only inappropriate it is posssibly criminal. Where exactly the direction for that treatment came from I don’t know. But my comments are directed at the source of the direction for that treatment. Be it a person, a policy (in this case the person that wrote the policy), or the guards themselves.

If the guards were simply following orders that could be assumed to be lawful orders then I’m not holding the guards resonsible.

Duane – If the guards were simply following orders that could be assumed to be lawful orders then I’m not holding the guards resonsible.

That is what I have been saying. They were given orders that they had to follow, even if they didn’t agree with them. If the order wasn’t a justifiable order then the blame is on the one giving the order which was the nurse/doctor.

If I was a guard and was told by a doctor that somebody had to be put on suicide watch and that meant taking their clothes I would follow that order, even if I didn’t agree with it, because if I didn’t and the person killed themselves I would be held criminally responsible for their death.

Jones said – John, I said “probably” because I have done strip searches and was never meant with any resistance, so based on my experience, strip searches are not confrontational.

I meant I was never met with any resistance.

Today I spoke with a friend of mine who is a police chief in a jurisdiction not far from where Hope Steffey lives. I asked him for his take on the situation. He said that the suicide watch/clothing removal is an absolutely routine occurrence in any jail. It has to be because the problem of inmate suicide is extremely common. (Google jail suicide, you’ll see what I mean). Inmates hang themselves with anything available, clothing, towels, bedsheets, they tear the mattresses apart and tie the cloth strips together to hang themselves. So simply removing belts and shoelaces is completely inadequate. A plaintiff’s attorney would have a field day with a jailer who said, “I didn’t think he could hang himself….I took his belt and shoelaces” My friend said that he felt it was foolish of Sheriff Swanson (whom my friend knows personally) to allow opposite sex guards to strip a female inmate. I asked him point blank if he considered Swanson a buffoon. He said “no, but Tim’s a black and white guy, if the law does not require him to use same sex guards for a clothing removal then he’s not going to do it.”

Since when are LEOs subjected to follow orders from doctors?

That doesn’t make sense at all. The doctor may suggest something but when the woman is in jail, they are the ultimate authority, not the doctor.

And where in the guidelines does it justify stripping a person naked and leaving them naked for six hours to prevent suicide?

Jails have had guidelines for dealing with suicidal patients since at least 1989, in which they give the inmates paper outfits to put on.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE4D61F39F935A15751C0A...

Besides, what indication did she give that she was suicidal?

From what I understand, all she said was something like “you mean like right now” when asked if she was suicidal.

That just seems like she was trying to clarify the question.

Besides, do we have any evidence that there is actually somewhere from where one can hang themselves from within the cell?

Since when are LEOs subjected to follow orders from doctors?

Carlos, if a doctor told a guard that an inmate had to go to the hospital because he was possibly having a heart attack and the guard said I’m not taking him because I think he is faking and the inmate died of a heart attack who’s side would you be on, the guard’s or the doctor’s?

I guess technically the guards would not have to take the orders from the doctor but if they didn’t and something bad happened it would be the guard who would lose their job and get criminally charged so a doctor’s order does carry a lot of weight in jail.

For all, there is absolutely no way to accurately predict who will and who will not attempt suicide. People that pass present day screenings routinely attempt or commit suicide within hours of screening. People that don’t pass a screening don’t make an attempt. So when a doctor, who by the way isn’t a medical doctor, that hasn’t even met the patient makes a diagnose it’s what amounts to quack science as is a lot of the science that’s used in the law officer world. Don’t believe me look up the research on this. Finding a way to accurately predict suicide is considered one of the most important things to figure out in the world of suicide prevention.

I don’t know exactly how many people in jail commit suicide. About 33,000 people commit suicide and about 545,000 attempt suicide in the USA in a year. About 90% of these people have a treatable mental illness for which they are not being treated. Suicide isn’t the result of one occurrence in a persons life like is often reported. It’s the result of ongoing mental health problems that are often time hidden. All most all people that end up committing suicide do give some king of warning in advance that they are thinking about it but it’s often missed.

For jones, yes if the doctor told them a suicide watch was needed they needed to do it. I disagree with the method, not the watch. Did the doctor tell them to jump her and rip her clothing off? I don’t know. Is this how they regularly get the clothing off of people in that jail who they place on a suicide watch? I think this is also what Carlos is referring to.

It’s uncalled for to leave her naked for 6 hours in any case. That is totally wrong and there is simply no excuse for it.

Certainly a confrontation with as much violence as seems to have gone on in the video was not needed nor warranted no matter what. As I said there were other choice like not leaving her alone.

For lawyaman, it’s not just prisoners that will do anything. If you are concerned about someone tearing up clothing to hang themselves give them an environment where hanging is impossible. Don’t use a cell with bars or other hooks that make hanging one self possible. Don’t have any furniture in the room. Don’t have a mattress in the cell. All very easy to accomplish.

CM-Besides, do we have any evidence that there is actually somewhere from where one can hang themselves from within the cell?

CANTON, OH — An attempted suicide was reported early Tuesday morning at the Stark County Jail.
Sheriff Tim Swanson said deputies observed a male inmate hanging from a jail bar door around 1 a.m. on the first floor of cell block B. The inmate used a towel that was torn into strips to create a cloth. Deputies also found a suicide note.
Source– Massillon Independent May 20 2008

CM-Besides, what indication did she give that she was suicidal?

CM-From what I understand, all she said was something like “you mean like right now” when asked if she was suicidal.

CM-That just seems like she was trying to clarify the question.

If you read the complaint filed in federal court, Steffey’s attorneys do not really question the justification for the clothing removal, nor do they question the use of male officers to carry it out. They do allege that the force used was excessive and that it could have been effected without so much “chaos”. The complaint states that Steffey was to be asked a “series of questions” we don’t know how many questions she was actually asked, but allegedly, when she answered “now or ever” to the question about harming herself , a signal was given to effectuate the clothing removal. Remember of course that most of the information available on this topic comes from the complaint, which is naturally one-sided and biased (as it should be) in favor of the plaintiff.

Regarding leaving her naked for six hours, I agree with you, if they had a paper jumpsuit available , they should have provided her with one.

Duane, you are one utopian soul…You will of course volunteer to pay the increase in taxes when we mandate a one to one guard to inmate ratio at the Stark County Jail (so no-one is ever left alone to commit suicide) or to completely rebuild the jail so as to “hang-proof” all the cells.

An aquired taste, then.

Hmmm, I didn’t know I was a tramp because I have a tattoo designating my service to America in the Vietnam war. I didn’t know that getting one would give permission to any police officer to treat me like crap, arrest me, strip search me, then leave me naked for six hours on the jail house floor. And FerfelaBat, I hope this never happens to you, but if it does, remember, you must have somehow deserved it.

Lawyaman. The Sheriff is not there to protect you or your family. It takes only seconds for someone to break into your home and kill you and your family. Call 911 sometime and see just how long it takes just to get the info on the air. Then time the response. And God help you if the Sheriff i already on a serious call because you will wait until that one is taken care of. Or God forbid, you live in a rural area. Where the response time may be 30 to 60 minutes or more. How you felling about that “protection” now?

lawyaman said, Duane, you are one utopian soul…You will of course volunteer to pay the increase in taxes when we mandate a one to one guard to inmate ratio at the Stark County Jail (so no-one is ever left alone to commit suicide) or to completely rebuild the jail so as to “hang-proof” all the cells.

I think that depends on how many prisoners on average at any given time are considered to be suicidal. According to Sheriff Swanson Swanson reports that there were 11,767 inmates processed and booked into the Stark County jail in 2007. of these they say In 2007 the mental health staff conducted 5,296 mental health assessments due to information received during the medical assessment at the time of incarceration. In 2007 there were 473 incidents where inmates were placed on suicide precautions. Of these instances 135 involved female inmates. they go on to say, The Sheriff’s staff has been very successful in dealing with suicidal inmates given that 11,767 inmates were processed and 5,296 had mental health issues. In 2007, 11 inmates attempted to kill themselves while in the Stark County Jail. They attempted this by hanging or cutting themselves.

It seems to me that 2, 3 or at most 4 cells would probably meet the needs without any problems. If they have these problems they need to do something and refitting a couple of cells would be less then what they are going to end up paying Hope.

Further there just aren’t that many suicides in Ohio jails according to the sheriff, In 2007 the Ohio Bureau of Adult Detention reported that 17 inmates killed themselves in Ohio Jails.

It sounds to me after reading what you posted the sheriff is maintaining a public nuisance where people are able to commit suicide without much trouble.

Excuse me for intruding, but I’d like to point out that, as near as I can tell, one relevant issue hasn’t been discussed at all in this thread.

LEOs and apologists seem to be a bit wary of me, and I assume that’s because I usually (though not always) focus on facts. I’m still waiting to a response to facts that I’ve posted on multiple threads, not just the latest Pataky thread. However, WRT this case, I’m distressed that one simple issue doesn’t seem to have been addressed by anybody. I’d genuinely appreciate a calm response from either side. If it matters, calm works best for me.

I’m referring to the trigger event. That seems important to me. Possibly you disagree. The key point is that a frightened and confused woman apparently said three short words that were followed instantly and without hesitation by violent action. Is this, or is this not, exactly what happened? No handwaving, mumbling, or name calling, please. True or false. Is this what happened, or did something else happen?

If all of this really happened because the victim answered, “Now, or ever?”, the whole thing sounds like an “attitude adjustment” to me, but more importantly, it sounds exactly like a totally unjustified “attitude adjustment”. I’d have said exactly the same thing as the woman did, precisely the same three words, and I’d have been quite sincere. Based on past issues related indirectly to his own life, Mr. Kervic might be able to understand this. Conceivably, some LEOs and apologists might be able to understand it for personal reasons as well.

The following statement is just an opinion, but it’s a sincere one: These people intentionally punished a frightened and confused woman because she’d made a remark that they considered to be “flip” or disrespectful. That’s all there was to it. That’s bad enough by itself, but please think about it. You’re stressed, you’re confused, somebody barks something at you that you honestly don’t understand, you answer as honestly as possible, and the next instant, moments later, you’re going through something that feels very much like a rape.

Did the words “Now, or ever?” justify what happened? Should the police have acted on these three words instantly, without hesitation, and violently? Doesn’t the fact that these three words were apparently acted on instantly, without hesitation, and violently demonstrate that this was an “attitude adjustment” and therefore, taken in context, the moral and possibly legal equivalent of a rape?

Typo. That was supposed to say “still waiting for a response to facts”.

V of R,

I thought I covered that someplace.

I personally believed at one time this happened because instead of saying “No” she said “Now, or ever?”. I thought I’d pointed out that it’s possible she was suicidal at one time but maybe not at the present time and wanted to be sure of the question she was answering.

When I lost my brother to suicide 2 years ago I learned lots about it. This blog isn’t about that so when I write about suicide here I try to stick to the facts at hand. This item and the other item where I’ve talked about it happen to overlap. People that admit to having feelings about hurting themselves are less likely to do anything. My brother wouldn’t make contact with me for for 9 days prior to his death and I was away in a remote area without much phone access for the previous 16 days. He knew I was the one that would probably decect him having a problem.

So if she really wanted to kill herself she wouldn’t have answered “now, or ever?” She would have answered “No.”

Voice
From what i have read on multipal Websites and papers That is the phrase she used. I have used it more then once in my life when being ask things i was unsure about and ( for give the pun)
all be damned if i was ever attacked like that you bet your ass i would have every one of those Sherrifs dep.s heads on a platter…… Not once did i hear any one say that this woman was demianing to the police officer EXSEPT from the cops point of veiw. there are Multipal witnesses that say Hope was first attacked at The place where the crime was first reported. Then the footage of the “rape” i think the sherrif at this point has realy screwed the pooch. SO WHAT IF SHE HAAD BEEN DRINKING thats not the point she didnt fight back as far as we know from what has been said by the reporters in this case. and NO where has it been stated she was drinking and/or on other substances of illegal use. Now if the sherrif would show us some proof that miss Hope had been an issue. IE. doctors transcrips video tape recording of the conversation then maybe i would be more willing to be on the sherrifs side BUT in no way do i condone ( even suicidal muderers ) thier rights to warm “paper clothes” or some other type of coverings.
ABD

Note to Duane Kerzic:

Didn’t mean to make you post details here about what happened. A forum on your site, where people who’d be helped by the details might see them, would be better. Said that last week. Thought I might have offended you at the time. Hope not.

Regarding the woman’s remarks, you said, “I thought I covered that someplace”. You probably said exactly what you remember, but I’m not sure that anybody, including you, has addressed some specific points. You’ve certainly talked about these points in general terms, but allow me to state them precisely and bluntly:

1. The police reacted instantly, without hesitation, and with violence to three simple words. 2. This fact demonstrates that the whole thing was an “attitude adjustment”. Note that no weapon was involved, or we’d need to look at the speed of the response differently. 3. The “attitude adjustment” component (regardless of what the woman said or didn’t say) is sufficient in and of itself to justify classifying this incident as similar to a rape from a moral and possibly a legal perspective.

I’m not saying that my reasoning is correct. However, if I’m mistaken, exactly where is the error here? Point 1, point 2, or point 3? Which point, please?

I appreciate your response. FWIW at least one of the points that you made about suicide is inaccurate. It’s actually a myth. A widely-believed myth, but a myth nonetheless. When I say this, I mean absolutely no offense. That would be regrettable, considering the circumstances under which you’ve done your research.

However, your response is off-topic WRT my points. My points aren’t about suicidal people or proper procedures for dealing with them. You people are debating that just fine without my assistance. I’ve got nothing to add to that debate at this point.

I’ve stated my concerns carefully in two postings now. If they aren’t clear, we’ll leave it at that.

Mr. Kerzic, you don’t need to respond further (unless, of course, you’d like to), and I take it that LEOs and apologists won’t touch these points unless they’re able to reframe them.

On the other hand, I see that ALL BE DAMNED has posted a response while I’ve been typing. I like the handle. Look forward to seeing what he’s said.

I just wish i knew which one the myth was. That poeple that talk about it are less likely?

Note to Duane Kerzic:

I’m aware that I might have come across just now as missing some straightforward points that you made. The points were related to what the woman said and how she should have been interpreted.

I didn’t address your points, except to make a general statement that I’d be willing to clarify at another time. I wanted to make it clear that I understand the points, or at least I believe that I do. However, WRT this case, I’m focused on the speed and violence of the police response, not on suicide-related issues. In my opinion, these are separate matters.

Note to Duane Kerzic: You’re up late. Yes, that’s the one. I should have stated that explicitly in my posting. And yes, I’m aware that I might have misread you. I haven’t gone back to check, but you might have been speaking about something different.

Complete violation of every rule. Men stripping women. She was handcuffed. Sheriff refuses to release more video because it will bury him. Looks like another cover up. She will get a million from this. But they will try to settle.

How many more videos are they hiding. Too bad. Maybe now, many more women will come out and say what is occurring at that jail.

Correction. I’m thinking of Mr. Miller’s timezone. I’ve seen him working on the site during what must be the middle of the night for him.

Mr. Kerzic, I’d be pleased to discuss some of the non-case issues that have been raised, but I’m not sure that this is the proper forum for it.

Note to ALL BE DAMNED: Well, you feel strongly about the case. My feelings are about the same. In fact, I might feel more strongly than you do. Additionally, we’re in agreement on the key points.

Thanks for confirming a fact that I wanted to double-check (the exact words that were used).

I assume the handle ALL BE DAMNED means debate isn’t the point. If that’s the case, it’s foolish of me to say anything else. However, if you’d like to make LEOs and apologists uncomfortable and possibly provoke some thought, don’t channel Howard Beale as much. It’s too easy to dismiss him in real life. Focus on points that can’t be waved away. That’s important, because people tend to mumble or make vague gestures when you hit them with facts. Your current posting gives people too much wiggle room. Use a browser that spell-checks form entries for you. Firefox can do that. Finally, the Caps Lock key doesn’t make your arguments stronger, though it’s useful in some cases.

However, it’s possible that none of this makes any difference. I’ve never really believed that rational discourse accomplishes anything anyway. It’s just that I’m more comfortable with it.

BTW DAMNED on a different thread, you said that you’d like to “read more of” Mr. Miller’s “writings and ravings”. If you didn’t see my note on that thread, I thought I’d mention that you’ll find a Deeper Archives panel on the right side of each page.

This will be my last posting on this thread unless somebody addresses me or responds to one of my existing postings.

Final remarks:

1. This case both is, and isn’t, about suicide. I acknowledge that I raised the issue of suicide myself in one context. However, the only thing that really matters is the speed and violence of the police response. It wasn’t about a search or suicide prevention. If you can’t point out the errors in my posts, it was about an “attitude adjustment”.

2. When I re-read the posting from the person who believes that this case isn’t important because the victim was a “dumb-ass” who had a “tramp stamp”, it’s difficult for me to see apologists as anything more than animals in a literal sense.

They share human language, which is significant, and I believe that they’re able to grasp abstract concepts in a dim and fuzzy way. However, they’re missing something fundamental, the thing that makes us human. These are the people who mocked Abner Louima, Patrick Dorismond, and Tyisha Miller’s family. Bonobos have been shown to have compassion, so as a rough approximation, these people rank somewhere below Bonobos.

3. I’d ask any apologist who believes that I’ve characterized him or her inaccurately to read the next to last paragraph of post 112. The paragraph in question doesn’t prove anything by itself. I simply believe that it might be helpful for you to imagine how another human being might have felt, “tramp stamp” and all.

There were many things stated that I could comment on, but not enough time to do so, sorry. One thing I will comment on is that the circumstances surrounding the psychiatric evaluation and the police response to it come from the complaint filed by Steffey’s attorneys in federal court. Swanson has largely remained tight-lipped about it, (as a litigant should) preferring to wait for a courtroom to explain the department’s side of the story. So what some of you seem to take as factual gospel about those circumstances is a one-sided, biased report filed as a complaint by Steffey’s attorneys.

Voice
The reson i leave so much wiggle room here was exsplained in post 123 by lawman hes right the only facts we can debate realy are the ones give by reporters and/ or Hope steffy
and while its very fun to read what people say about these things and yes i do feel very strongly about this case. I live in rural Nebraska
where our only law enforcement happens to be THE SHERRIF
But besides that i have my daughter and my wife to worry about out here. No slighting you there voice and no mean to make offences.

Note to Voice yes i did thank you very much and hope you and i can cross blades and wits again on something else in this forms ………

Back solely to respond. Note to ALL BE DAMNED: You said, “no mean to make offences”.

Thanks for your postings. I’ve enjoyed them. Seriously, regardless of the side that you post on (and, for the moment, we’re in agreement about things), you might be angry, but you strike me as honest, and you don’t appear to be as full of yourself as I am or as some of the apologists are.

Offense at what? I wasn’t sure until recently, but it appears that I’m only rattled by certain kinds of irrationality and one other thing that’s related to territory. I posted something recently about preferring calm interaction, but I’ll need to retract that. Too restrictive for an open forum.

Note to Voice
I would love to get your email adress at some point Voice it seems we have alot in common and would like to Talk about other points in other cases on this site besides the forms.
And yes i am a whipper snapper ( under the age of 40) and would love to gain more wisdom.
and calm open postings are good Gives me some real meat to bite on in these forums I am still learning how to comunicate better so any Critisom is welcoem and forgive my spelling.
as for this case i look at it two ways the first is this
1. if i where an officer and someone just came in with fresh blood on them what would i do in that situation would i say “oh screw it they are in cuffs must be a bad guy ” or do i say ” I better have a look at this this could be an injury that needs Imidiate attention”
2. isnt this the person who was assaulted why is she here and the the person who assaulted her…
3. whit regaurd to the ? asked by Police conserning suicide ” is this person being sarcastic if not is she clarifiing a ? ask by the NURSE
i have more but i will leave these ? and or statments for those of you who would like to debate more

Note to Voice
heres my email if you would like to send an email to me ( NOTE TO TROLLS AND THOSE WHO SEND SPAM THIS IS A TRASH EMAIL)
Kenbankers@rocketmail.com

Voice:
I thoroughly enjoyed your discourse. If you would be so kind to point me to the site where you post on a regular basis, I would be happy to indulge my intellect.
If I am not mistaken, I believe the conversation ended as follows:
Nurse: “Now or at any time?”
Hope: “Yeah, like right now would be a good time”….
inferring to commit suicide.
Cheers,
dateach

Forgive my earlier post it seems Dateacher posted befor i could edit and that NEGATES the edit function so THERES your answer voice on why you never see the edit function

Note to ALL BE DAMNED:

It’s a long message, but I’d be the last person who should complain about that I’ll try to respond to all of the points.

1. You said: “I would love to get your email adress”. I’ve had E-mail off and on over the years. In fact, I’ve written E-mail servers and clients. Right now, I don’t have an E-mail address, but I’ll think about setting one up. Not this month, though.

2. You said: “It seems we have a lot in common”. The Internet is different than real life. However, there’s nothing wrong with trying to connect with Internet people as long as you don’t take it too seriously.

3. You said: “And yes i am a whipper-snapper, under the age of 40″. If you’re in your 30s, you’re not a whipper-snapper. You’re in the prime of your life. Twenty-somethings are healthier as a group, and their lives are more interesting, but thirty-somethings are still reasonably healthy, they’ve established themselves, they’re more secure, they’re raising families, they’ve still got the previous generation to rely on and talk to. It doesn’t work out this way for everybody, but it seems to me that the thirties are pretty good for some people.

You aren’t the whipper-snapper that I was referring to. He’d be about 8 to 18 years younger than you. And I’m older than you are, but I’m not old enough to warrant respect based on that.

4. You said: “would love to gain more wisdom”. I’m the most intelligent person that I know personally, except possibly for one individual that some of you would have heard of, and I’ve probably got about 5 points on him. Not clear. However, I’m also one of the least wise persons that I know or that I’ve ever met. I’ve got no wisdom. It’s not the same thing.

5. You said: “Gives me some real meat to bite on in these forums I am still learning how to comunicate better so any Critisom is welcoem and forgive my spelling”. O.K. that I can do. I’m not here permanently, but while I’m here, I won’t be shy about offering criticism.

As far your spelling goes, have you tried the Firefox web browser? Some versions underline misspelled words automatically while you’re typing them.

6. You commented further on the current case. Your reasoning appears to make sense, but I’ve summarized my own feelings in previous postings and I’ll probably leave it at that.

7. You said: “heres my email”. Thanks. If I set up E-mail again, I’ll keep it in mind. BTW to reduce spam, don’t post the actual E-mail address in the future. Replace the at-sign part with the words “at-sign” or make other changes of that type.

8. In another posting, you said “THERES your answer voice on why you never see the edit function”. That’s probably part of it, but I’ve made some postings late at night when nobody else is around, and it’s still an issue. Don’t worry about it. It’s not a big deal.

Give power over others to an ignorant thug and you don’t have to have an imagination…..

Glorify and empower the ignorant, for god’s sake do not let them start thinking for themselves, they are where the money is after all and all the power you can milk…….make them police themselves and commit heinous crimes under the umbrella of the ‘law’, this is the world we are living in. And don’t mistake the intellectual for intelligent on academic merit or status alone. There’s no genius in being a kiss arse sell out like mainstream media. i doubt this will solve anything……

Note to “dateach”:

1. You said, “I thoroughly enjoyed your discourse”. Thank you.

2. You said, “If you would be so kind to point me to the site where you post on a regular basis, I would be happy to indulge my intellect”.

I’ve posted to Wikipedia and contributed to projects under various handles, but though I’ve been involved with this kind of thing since before the modern Internet existed, this is one of the first non-technical sites that I’ve dealt with. There is no “regular basis” site. This might be the first and last one, and I expect that it’ll be a temporary situation.

3. WRT the current case, I’d seen reports that the psychiatric evaluation proceeded one way, and you’ve stated that it proceeded a different way.

A quick web search shows numerous hits for the “Now, or ever?” wording and just one so far for the wording that you’ve stated. To complicate matters further, Mr. Miller believes that the wording was similar to the one you’ve stated, but slightly different.

I’m not sure what to think. If the wording you’ve stated turned out to be correct, I’d probably still believe that the incident was an “attitude adjustment”, but it would be more defensible from a legal perspective. A lot would depend on a phrase I’ve used several times, the speed and violence of the police response.

Certainly, I’d need to revise the picture that I’ve painted, which is black and white with no shades of gray at all. However, I’d only need to revise the picture up to a point. Additionally, I’d continue to believe that the “tramp stamp” poster and his friends were sub-human and, in fact, sub-Bonobo.

lawyaman
So what some of you seem to take as factual gospel about those circumstances is a one-sided, biased report filed as a complaint by Steffey’s attorneys. UNQUOTE

I have read their own reports, and let me tell you you haven’t seen BIASED until you have seen these.
The investigator basically spellchecks the cop reports and then rubberstamps them as fact.

Voice:
The recording is posted on You Tube. Have a listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTjRdDuBz1k

I have questions about this case.

When the cops investigated the complaint WHY didn’t they have EVERYONE there, that was a witness, fill out a written report? They took a written from the alleged attacker & her brother, but FAILED to get anything other than an oral report from anyone else. And nowhere is there any mention of what they said in any police reports that I have found yet. (Only the trial.)

When was Steffey read her rights telling her she did NOT have to talk to the cops? (yet according to Swanson’s ‘policy’ they say you can be stripped for not talking too)

And when you call the sheriff’s office WHY will they not talk about ANY general rules or policies, once you mention Hope Steffey’s name? (I know they can’t talk about that case, but they clam up entirely.)

Why do they laugh, when you ask for the person responsible for handing out info under the Freedom of Info Act.

And WHY do they hang up on you when trying to ask for this information?

And most of all WHY would anyone believe anything these cops said without proof after getting caught in their own lies?

dateach
Voice:
The recording is posted on You Tube. Have a listen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e3LrhDs84g&feature=channel

Yeah you can clearly tell Steffey is being sarcastic, NOT suicidal.

And when I asked for the WHOLE unedited tape to enhance it and show it up for the “manufactured” evidence it is, the sheriff’s dept THEN claimed it was medical evidence, and couldn’t be released!!!

WTF they ALREADY released their version of it, but now claim its private??

This is one of MANY reasons I don’t believe the cops.
(Not to mention their own report that proves them as liars.)

John454,

Talking and wringing your hands about how corrupt those cops are won’t do anything to get that tape in your hands. You need to take action.

Partner with a non profit specializing in freedom of information requests and get advice. Call the talk radio station in Canton and respectfully bring the topic up thereby raising the story’s profile. Call national news outlets and ask to speak to the reporter covering your region and be prepaired to spoon feed them both sides of the story. Do Something. It doesn’t have to be an all day deal – 15 minutes per day until you get the resolution you want.

If you feel that passionately about it take ownership of it and make it happen. Good luck and keep us posted!

Note to “dateach” and John454: Thank you for the links. I’ll check them out later today.