Police In UK Detain Men For Videography After Osama's Death

Now that Osama bin Laden is dead, we can go back to living normal lives where photographers do not get accused of terrorism, right?

Wrong.

Just hours after it was announced he had been killed, five men were arrested in England for videotaping outside a nuclear power plant.

The men, who are believed to be Muslim, were incarcerated overnight while police raided their London homes.

However, police have yet to connect them to anything other than videography.

The men were detained under the United Kingdom’s controversial Terrorism Act, which allows police to detain photographers on suspicion of terrorism who are doing nothing but taking pictures in public.

British officials believed the men were possibly seeking revenge on bin Laden’s death by videotaping the power plants.

Comments

If security at a nuclear power plant can be compromised by the mere act of viewing or taping from a publicly available spot, we are in deep doodoo. I hope security is not contingent on this.

Well if it is, The Sun has already violated it by posting that giant picture of the power plant on top of the story.

If that is UK law, then it is the law. If you don't like it, then petition your local MP. You can't fault police for using the tools that are legally given to them.

I believe the complaint here is about the law. So I'm not sure what the relevance of your comment is.

Let us not forget that the UK is not a republic, nor is it a democracy. It is a monarchy. This law has been on the books since 2008 in the UK, and if the sheep there really value their freedom, they can do something about it. I would be protesting such a law every single day in the streets outside the parliament. If protesting didn't work after awhile, I would take it to another level. The people need to do something about this, or the filth will continue to rule their streets.

If Great Britain were still a true monarchy, protests would mean nothing. The queen could simply turn her nose up at them and walk back inside. The fact of the matter is that it is a parliamentary monarchy. The government is democratically elected, and even though the PM technically has to run matters of state past the queen, it is by courtesy only. Obviously there is a lot more to it than this, but it is more a democracy than a monarchy or republic.

Let's not forget that the reigning monarch in the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland has no political power, the last time a British monarch dabbled in politics was when George VI got Ramsay MacDonald, Britain's first Labour Prime Minister, to dissolve his second government and enter a coalition with the Liberals and the Tories.

This was in 1931, the King persuading his first minister to resolve parliament. MacDonald is remembered as a traitor by Labour to this day. But one thing we need to keep in mind is that King George VI didn't have any autority to do this, he was excerting influence. MacDonald would not have had to follow his instructions.

The British monarch follow constitutional practice, which is a funny term in the United Kingdom, as there is no actual constitution, but one part of it is that while the monarch appoints the head of government, the monarch can not pick and choose as he or she pleases. There is a parliamentary election, and the party with a majority gets called the Buckingham Palace where the monarch ask him or her to form a government. In the case of a hung parliament, like in the last election, the monarch will consult with the current Prime Minister, and look at what alliances are being made (in this case, it became obvious that the Tories and the LibDems would form a majority together), and then give their candidate a call.

There are big issues with the election system in the United Kingdom, first past the post has given very inaccurate results, for instance, the Liberal Democrats gained 1 % over the last result, polling 23 % of the votes. They got 8 % of the representation in the Commons. But that has nothing to do with the monarchy. I really don't see how the monarchy has anything to do with this.

In comparison, Norway is also a monarchy. However, it is, like Britiain, a constitutional monarchy, which means the monarch has no real power (great exception was during WW2, when King Haakon VII told his government he would have nothing to do with a capitulation). In Norway, we have strong legal practice that absolutely protects things like secret press sources, the press in general, and we have legal practice literally prohibiting the police from looking at your photos, asking you to stop photographing, taking your camera or deleting your photos.

If we are talking about Saudi Arabia, then it is of concequence that the head of state is a monarch.

I'm sorry, this got a little wrong. But you just got that so wrong.

:)

While your complaint is valid, your snide remark regarding bin Laden is quite immature.

Yeah, because Bin Laden was such an upstanding guy... Shovel that shit somewhere else. That piece of shit should have been wrapped in bacon rather than a burial shroud.

Bin Laden was a piece of shit. But his body should still be handled with respect. That shit about bacon is just very immature, and makes you look like one of those morons who hate all muslims, you might say.

Have you even read the Qur'an, or studied the teachings of Islam? Do you know that it is the duty of each and every Muslim to strive until all governments have been converted to Shari'a Law, according to the Qur'an?

The Bible and Torah were written by many authors, many years apart, with parables, advice, and dreams all collected together into one book. The Qur'an, however, is only one book written by one man, over the course of his life. It is meant to be taken literally, and is not filled with symbolism or vague analogies, yet it is filled with direct commands.

The Qur'an has its share of contradictions in it, though it provides the reader with a way to know what to do with those contradictions. If you have 2 passages in the Qur'an that contradict each other, the one written later always supersedes the one written earlier. The "peaceful and tolerant" passages were written early in Mohammad's life, but have been abrogated by more violent and less tolerant passages written later in Mohammad's life.

According to the Qur'an, a Muslim must not ignore or alter any part of its very clear direct message, or they will burn in the fires of Hell forever.

That being said, I'm not a religious guy at all, but I HAVE studied many different religions very carefully, and Islam is a very evil, and violent religion. Religion of peace my ass.

For the avoidance of doubt, it wasn't a 'power plant', it was a *reprocessing* plant - where they extract the real nasty stuff from spent fuel. Lots of plutonium floating around in there; it's a lot more sensitive and secure than the average power station.

Mike

Exactly. If you don't like the law, lobby against it, move, abide by it or violate it and pay the consequences.

All one's choices.

There is no story here other than the possible prevention of terrorism.

I think you should live in North Korea, China, or Vietnam.

This law is interesting. Firstly, the law was recently struck down by the European Human Rights Court, which means it is technically no longer the law of the land.

Secondly, if you're not a terrorist, it is never illegal to photograph a power plant, or a reprocessing plant. In other words, there is no reason why a reasonable person should expect he or she was breaking the law. In effect, if you're not a terrorist, you are not breaking the law.

It is not a question of breaking the law, like when you steal a car, it is a question of the police on the ground making an arrest over suspicious activity, there has at no point been broken any laws.

I suggest you read up on things before commenting.

hal

@Norwegian Chap:

its a sucky state of affairs when they would first need to learn to read before doing what you ask of them! well perhaps they just need to get a copy of "google for dummies"?

in any case they "are" doing what you suggest, talking out their ass!

its like i have stated before and your saying now in so many words now, its all bullshit, its an ego problem they COPS have and no one is taking them to task over it! [thinking someone is a threat doesnt cut it anymore, and hasnt for years, its all bulshit]

They probably felt a need to be on the safe side. If authorities suspect terrorism, they will disregard laws en masse anyway, so it's not really a question of law. I don't like it, but that's reality.

At least they were let go rather quickly. And at least this time the photography was of a sensitive target at a sensitive time. It's not good, or acceptable, but at least understandable. In the UK, it's a much more important issue with normal beat cops who think photography is something they can order stopped.

In reality, there is almost no case when a UK police officer can prohibit photographing something going on in a public place, the laws that have been made regarding photography have been twofold.

Firstly, a law was made making it legal to perform stop and searches on photographers in "security sensitive areas", which is a dubious term. In practice, it meant police could stop and search someone photographing in such a sensitive area, and if they determined there was a substanciated suspicion of terrorism planning, they could act on it. It was never a prohibition on photography in public, even while some police officers interpreted it that way.

Secondly, a widely misinterpreted law making it illegal to photograph police officers as an element of surveilance preparing terrorism attacks. If you were the IRA, doing surveilance on undercover RUC officers, to prepare an attack, then you'd be breaking the law.

Contrary to popular belief, it has never been illegal to photograph police officers in Britain, the same goes for kids and cute women.

"Contrary to popular belief, it has never been illegal to photograph police officers in Britain, the same goes for kids and cute women."

That could soon be illegal in some states
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/nj_assembly_panel_considers_bi....

Well, that would seem unconstitutional.

"Well, that would seem unconstitutional"
Probably.
If this one in Maine passes you won't even be able to look.
http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080406/NEWS/8...

The fact that they were there shows they already knew where the plant was. Don't see how filming could make matters any worse. I guess the filming was just an excuse for the cops to detain them long enough for an extensive records check. By the time those brit cops are done they will know what brand of pap those five dudes ate as infants. It's unfortunate that England thinks Orwell's 1984 is a tech manual on how to run government, not the warning that it is meant to be.

This is what happens when your constitution isn't respected.

The United Kingdom doesn't really have a constitution. They have the Magna Carta, but their constitution is, in a manner of speech, constitutional practice. How they've done it before, is how it's done now, if they don't change things for some reason.

However, a constitution is not worth the paper it's written on if it's not respected. For instance, the Soviet Union enacted a very expansive constitution in 1921, with loads of civil liberties. Which is fine, but it didn't stop Lenin and Stalin from doing as they pleased.

I tend to think Americans put a little too much trust into the constitution itself. It's not the constitution that's kept America free, it's the absence of powerful men with the wish to make it really unfree. The Supreme Court has ruled differently over the years on a number of cases, it's not because the constitution has changed significantly, it's because the men who pass judgement change.

But this is a digression, I appologize.

hal

@Norwegian Chap:

we here in the usa have lost more freedoms then most here would care to admit, one great example would be the IRS!

it is possible and it happens that third parties may steal property without any court involvement at all, and it appears to be all legal, but it is not. happens almost everyday!

fact is the Constitution protects against anyone, even GOV. from taking anything with any judicial involvement, and lawyers will tell you all day long this is legal, but shit. lawyers are "officers of the court", so talk to me about biting the hand that feeds you? it wont happen, lawyers will never tell you the truth.
CHAP: do you know anything about contract law?

You've lost some freedoms, depending on your perspective. There is a lot of economic, personal freedom, for instance.

However, you are in many respects less good on civil rights and basic human rights; there is still no recognition of a 'civil union' between LGB couples. Which is actually very important, all the time such unions, or marriages, have no impact on anyone else than themselves.

Some years ago, the laws of England were put aside, and the natural, self evident rights of man put in place. They just didn't live in a world where you didn't make it illegal.

hal

@Norwegian Chap:

oh...dont get me started on how blacks or gays are treated in this country.
the MBPD treats gays like second class citizens, and that is an understatement! and the city of miami cops, they treat blacks...hmmm. well a bit worse then that!

maybe the piggies could go to england for training! now thats an idea that has a worse chance of happening then you winning the fla. lotto!

hal

@Norwegian Chap:

we here in the usa have lost more freedoms then most here would care to admit, one great example would be the IRS!

it is possible and it happens that third parties may steal property without any court involvement at all, and it appears to be all legal, but it is not. happens almost everyday!

fact is the Constitution protects against anyone, even GOV. from taking anything with any judicial involvement, and lawyers will tell you all day long this is legal, but shit. lawyers are "officers of the court", so talk to me about biting the hand that feeds you? it wont happen, lawyers will never tell you the truth.
CHAP: do you know anything about contract law?

hal

@Norwegian Chap:

we here in the usa have lost more freedoms then most here would care to admit, one great example would be the IRS!

it is possible and it happens that third parties may steal property without any court involvement at all, and it appears to be all legal, but it is not. happens almost everyday!

fact is the Constitution protects against anyone, even GOV. from taking anything with out any judicial involvement, and lawyers will tell you all day long this is legal, but shit. lawyers are "officers of the court", so talk to me about biting the hand that feeds you? it wont happen, lawyers will never tell you the truth.
CHAP: do you know anything about contract law?

Honestly folks think about it. We just killed Bin Laden and it is likely that the terrorist groups will retaliate in some way. These terrorists groups are Arab and we know they like to blow stuff up.

Why is it so crazy to be extra vigilant?

Because there's always some excuse to violate civil liberties.

Because, for the millionth time, photography alone, absent other behavior, is not a suspicious activity.

hal

@Saul:

i am saying it this way cause there are some that find it difficult to understand what i am saying and what i mean. present company excluded.

in response to your comment, I agree and would also add that there are some among us that will never understand that concept if they lived to be 1000yrs old!
I do not believe that they are stupid, just that their brain has not evolved to the point of communicating at that level as of yet!
Saul or whomever:
please translate that or whatever to those that may still not know what i meant by that comment, thank you.
please post here with those requests to Saul or whomever. :(


[this post is protected under the laws of the USA and cannot be legally transmitted, copied, repeated, photographed, video'd, vomited on, pissed on, scanned, saved to PC, or read by anyone cept with the written permission of whom wrote this damn thing! just try doing so and i will SUE your damn ass! have a nice day!!]

No reason right until the power plant blows up and then we will wonder why the police didn't do some basic investigations.

Once again, this is right after Bin Laden was killed. We know the terrorists groups are going to retaliate. England has been the target of several terrorist attacks. These attacks were carried out by Muslim males. The power plant is a possible target.

Gee police see a couple of Muslim males taking pictures so they investigate. Good for them.

Wait. Taking pictures makes stuff blow up? What great power I've wielded for so long and did not even know it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconnaissance

Look it up. Basic stuff.

Also look here:

http://www.fathom.com/feature/190155/index.html

"Relatively sophisticated terrorist groups do not attack people or places without a basic level of planning and reconnaissance. Therefore, arguably the greatest return on investment is in the identification and disruption of pre-attack planning operations. It is crucially important to intercept the terrorists' own intelligence-gathering processes."

http://www.flickr.com/search/?ss=2&w=all&q=brooklyn+bridge&m=text

OMG, look at all of those photographers planning to blow up the bridge! We have to stop them!

No one is saying that these five men *may* have been up to no good. But the very act of taking a picture of something -- whether it be a flower, a bridge or a power plant -- is not (at least in this country, although obviously this blog would not exist if this really were the case) suspicious activity, without accompanying behavior and questioning.

Of course they do research, but that argument is completely fallacious. You can use that same reasoning to justify suspicion based on almost any behavior.

Rapists drive cars.
Murderers own guns.
Drug dealers own cellphones.
Burglars wear dark clothes.
Vandals buy spray paint.

You of all people should know what is required for probable cause.

Here's an example, click on this link (I promise it's nothing bad):
Photos of that power plant.

Now you're as suspicious as they are (assuming you have brown skin).

hal

ROB:

you are in procession of those power plant images, where did you get them, whom are you working with, why do you have them, we have ways of making you talk, squeal or whatever it is they make you do nowadays! we have ways to make you do it.
thats not porn, its worse. you pose a threat for just the fact you know how to use a camera, where and what school did you learn how to do this, Florida?
we will search your resident, we will ask you an awful lot of questions! and there is nothing that you can do about it. this is the "WAR ON TERROR" dadaaaaaaaaaa!
they did a study, fact is there is a terrorist/communist under every rock! [well..DUH, not under every rock, but almost every rock!]

notliberal, are you getting all of this?

by the way, what the fuck is a war on terror?

@ Rob

Yeah I know you can get pictures of the power plant by using Google Earth. Pics are out there of everything however anyone with any tactical planning experience knows that there is no substitute for real boots on the ground intelligence.

When I was in a tactical narcotics team (cue the trolls), we did raids on houses all the time. Most houses could be viewed from multiple angles from the internet. We would use these for preliminary planning but we would also always go out to the actual location to eyeball it prior to the raid. Actually being there lets you get a better understanding of the layout, obstacles, distances, and so on.

These terrorist groups are going to do actual on the ground recon of a target no matter how many pictures are on the internet. That is just how it works. The police actively looking into this activity has the potential to disrupt attacks.

It's just that simple.

JL, I suggest you read another take on this issue, and respond to its points --

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/06/the_war_on_phot.html

Would September 11, 2001 have been avoided by investigating anyone who may have been taking photos of the Pentagon or Twin Towers? Would the Madrid or London train bombings have been avoided by a ban on photography on those trains?

It's just that simple.

Once again, it's NOT a 'POWER PLANT'. I wouldn't expect there to be any problems with photographing a nuclear power station in the UK. This is a big site which at one time contained a small power station, yes - but it is mostly a REPROCESSING plant. It's full of real nasties, including over a hundred tons of *weapons grade plutonium*.

I'm NOT saying it was right to detain, or even question, the photographers - who have all been released without charge btw - but I felt it needed to be pointed out that this location is VERY different to your average nuclear power station.

Mike

Then shouldn't they be arresting anybody who looks at the power plant?

>> We know the terrorists groups are going to retaliate.

We do? Do you know something the rest of us don't?

Is this just like when Attorney General Ashcroft warned us in May 2004 that a new attack was imminent?

http://articles.cnn.com/2004-05-26/us/terror.threat.transcript_1_al-qaed...

Or the countless other times our leaders have warned us that an attack was around the corner?

Seriously? We kill the leader of Al Qaeda and you don't think that there will be retaliation?

From http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/05/03/osama-bin-laden-worl...

"Al-Qaeda Islamists have already vowed revenge for bin Laden’s death in online jihadi chatrooms.
One man, using the name Assad al-Jihad2, said the holy war against the West was far from over.
He wrote: “Woe to his enemies. By God, we will avenge the killing of the Sheik of Islam."

From http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/scheuer-al-qaida-bin/2011/05/03/id/395043

"Al-Qaida is much stronger than it was on 9/11 despite the death of Osama bin Laden and it's a virtual certainty that the growing terrorist group will launch a major revenge attack, according to author and former CIA bin Laden-expert Michael Scheuer."

From http://ethiopiantimes.wordpress.com/2011/05/02/al-shabab-threatens-reven...

"Members of Somalia’s militant group al-Shabab have pledged allegiance to al-Qaida, and a spokesman on Monday threatened revenge attacks for bin Laden’s death.
“The Americans have previously killed other Islamist leaders,” said Mohamed Osman Arus. “Their students will continue the jihad and we shall retaliate against the Americans, Israel, Europe and Christians in Somalia with destructive explosions.”"

Wake up man.

So when can we stop living our lives in fear of said retaliation? July 1? November 1? Surely if they haven't retaliated by November 1, they won't, right?

Or should we permanently live our lives in fear, and permanently live in a society where any Middle Eastern-looking man can be arrested for standing near a bridge, courthouse, or airport and committing the heinous crime of whipping out his SLR or point-and-shoot? Or maybe we should just solve the problem by locking up all Middle Eastern-looking men?

So are you saying that we should all bury our heads in the sand and act like there is no threat?

Stop throwing out strawman statements and being so dramatic. I'm simply saying that based on the current threat levels some amount of vigilance is necessary.

Vigilance is not equal to throwing a stereotypical Middle Eastern-looking guy in prison simply for the act of taking photos.

And that's not exactly this situation either.

hal

Vigilance is not equal to throwing a stereotypical Middle Eastern-looking guy in prison simply for the act of taking photos.
thank you for that, and i mean that.

thank you again Saul, that is a very strong and important statement, and right on point! as nonliberal can tell you i have much difficulty with big words.

hal

JL:

so they are going to bomb shit! what to do about it?

HINT: they didnt need the killing of that SOB, they already hate us, we are the devil, we are evil. so they gona try and fuck us no matter what!
tell us something we dont know!!!!

so then you say, they have a better reason to try and kill us, they will take more time out of their day for plotting to, what to do next! No more lunch breaks, we have to plan how we gona kill those americans....etc. no more break times, we will sleep less, we have to come up with something that kills a whole bunch of em at one strike.
[on our side], [now speaking for the likes of you], we have to get intelligent and find out what they gona do to try and kill me, i have to sleep less, take less breaks, take no lunch breaks, eat while working so I can find out how they will try and will really hurt a whole bunch of people i am trying to protect from them!
I trust no one, even the ones i am hired to protect [AMERICANS], i dont really know who the my enemy is, so everyone is on my list until i find who the true enemy is!
am I going off the deep end, yes I am. I have to, to protect someone, i dont really know who. But ill find out when the smoke clears!

{the proceeding was fiction, not non-fiction, as in not to be taken serious cept if your JL or someone like him/her.}

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