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How much should you charge for a photograph?San Francisco Police Caught on Video Shooting Man in Wheelchair
San Francisco police opened fire on a knife-wielding man in a wheelchair in an incident caught on citizen cell phone video.
The man in the wheelchair, who apparently survived the shooting, did not appear to be much of a threat to police - although there were reports that he had stabbed an officer beforehand.
In fact, if you look closely at the video, he appears to have his hands in the air as the cops move in with their guns drawn.
Then he turns his back to the officers as they begin firing their guns. At least one officer fired a non-lethal beanbag gun and another officer fired a lethal service revolver.
I couldn't really see it in the video, but KTVU reports that he had tossed the knife seconds before he was shot.
The incident occurred Tuesday in front of a mental health facility. Police said the man was slashing tires. He also was not confined to the wheelchair, even though he was sitting in it.
San Francisco police said they would rather have pumped him with 50,000 volts of electricity rather than lead bullets, but they unfortunately do not carry Tasers.
Now there are four separate investigations into the incident, including from the San Francisco homicide unit, internal affairs, the district attorney's office and the office of citizens’ complaints.
The obvious question is; why didn't police shoot him after he had stabbed an officer instead of waiting until he was no longer a threat?
Comments
Another good question would be, why don't the have tasers?
Because of this: http://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Os...
See the section titled "Taser Confusion"
Why didn't they just shoot out his tires ?
A spike strip would have been even better.
A simple broomstick in the spokes would have done it.
There has been a lot of questions about taser's safety. Mostly, it's a problem when they use tasers to shoot bed-ridden grannies on oxygen tanks, naked little girls who refuse to get in the shower, etc. not so much when you got a loonie with a knife.
Still, shooting someone sitting in a wheelchair is a tad of an overreaction. The good thing is, they can't claim they thought they were holding a taser when they shot him. They'll have to fall back on the "I thought he had a gun and I feared for my life" BS.
What you can't see in the video is that the wheelchair was equipped with the OEM LGMS (laser guided missile system) package.
The guy wasn't wheelchair bound. That means it makes no difference if he was sitting in a wheelchair, bar stool, or on a fencepost.
And the officers don't have to fall back on thinking he had a gun. A knife = deadly weapon = deadly force authorized. Did you miss the part about this guy having already stabbed an officer?
Silly cops. Don't they know it is their job to let crazy people stab them? I love how the moron with the camera is saying how it wasn't necessary from the safety of across the street. Make that idiot responsible for arresting the guy with the knife if he's such an expert.
Oh and the reason there wasn't a taser used is because San Francisco doesn't allow it's officers to carry them. This is what you get when you have stupid policies like that. Hey, at least nobody got tased right?
I have to agree with JL on this one.
"It was legal so it's justified." Johnny Law, why don't you tell us how a shooting under your belt guarantees you an early PTSD disability retirement with full pension.
The guy in the wheelchair was mental but hardly a threat after he wildly threw the knife. The beanbag round did the job of disarming. Shooting him when he is unarmed is wrong. Lethal force should only be used when someone is in motion to do lethal harm. The fact that he earlier stabbed an officer is irrelevant and not just cause for use of lethal force on an unarmed man.
"It was legal so it's justified." Johnny Law, why don't you tell us how a shooting under your belt guarantees you an early PTSD disability retirement with full pension."
Where do you get your information?
The beanbag round didn't disarm the guy. Watch the video again. He was beanbagged and then he threw the knife. The gunshot was a reaction to him starting to throw. Unfortunately, action beats reaction so the gunshot was too late to stop the throw.
Either way, a thrown knife is deadly so the officer was justified in using deadly force to protect himself.
Attempting to throw a knife at an officer who is pointing a gun at you is an excellent way to get ventilated.
Yes, I understand that if you shoot or stab a cop your chances of getting killed (or committing suicide ;^) increase dramatically after the fact. Same thing as with any other armed street gang.
If you are sitting in a wheelchair, even if you are not paralyzed, unless you exit said wheelchair, you will not be charging at the officers with your knife, even if he'd actually been holding it at the time. There is a difference between 'necessary shooting' and 'can get away with shooting'. I now know where you stand, if you can construe that I have or had a weapon and have used it on a cop, "authorized" to fire at will.
These SF cops didn't follow standard procedure which is to take him out of public view and then execute him. "He went for my gun". What is it with the new recruits these days. Just look at the mess over the BART thing, all for not following procedure. There are cell phones with cameras everywhere nowadays.
"Just look at the mess over the BART thing"
The judge ruled that was an accidental shooting
Isn't it more like "The judge declared there wasn't proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that it wasn't accidental"? I've seen it from several camera angles but because I cannot probe what was going through the cop's mind at the very moment he pulled the trigger I'll just have to conclude that every single murder is 'accidental' from now on.
YOU can conclude what you want because what You conclude doesn't matter.
Wrong as usual Bart, better check your meds.
BART officer convicted of involuntary manslaughter.
On November 5, Mehserle was sentenced to two years with double credit for time already served, reducing his term by 292 days for the 146 days he has already spent in jail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant
Luc,
Go read the California definition of Involuntary Manslaughter. It covers accidental death caused by acting without due caution or circumspection.
The words of the judge doing the sentencing confirm that it was an accidental shooting. Involuntary manslaughter:
"Pirone was virtually in the line of fire. That is suggestive that this was an accident. Mehserle was on the platform for a very brief period, a matter of slightly more than two minutes, before pulling his gun and shooting Grant. He was not threatened by Grant, he had no reason to pull his gun and shoot Grant. Mehserle had absolutely no motive to shoot Grant. He didn't know Grant and had never interacted with Grant before. Of great significance in the court's ruling is that Mehserle announced he was going to Tase Grant. This statement was corroborated by Pirone and (Grant's friend) Jackie Bryson. Mehserle stood to gain distance, which would be required for the shooting of a Taser to be effective. It would not have been required to fire a gun. Mehserle fired once, which is consistent with shooting a Taser and inconsistent with firearm training, which says if you're going to shoot, you shoot more than once -- you double or triple tap is the phrase used. Mehserle pulled on his service revolver in a manner suggestive of trying to pull out a Taser. He was pushing in. It took him several efforts to pull the gun. After the shooting his hands immediately went to his head in obvious shock and surprise. This is again inconsistent with an intention to shoot. (Grant's friend Carlos) Reyes heard Mehserle say, "Oh, s--. Oh, s--. I shot him." Again, further evidence that this was an unintentional shooting."
JL, it was the over escalation of the BART Officers, and the liberal use of Tasers as instant justice that led to the Taser/Gun confusion and subsequent death of Oscar Grant.
If the Bart Officers didn't act like Thugs, this would have been a non incident. The systematic brutality of the BART Police force is the main problem here. The it's legal so it's justified, is the double standard that most are objecting to. Why do you think so many people protested? It wasn't because BART Police were a bunch of Officer Friendlies.
It's simple, do onto others as you would want others to do onto you. Till Police follow that golden rule, they will be hated by those that they have violated.
It was the totality of the event that put Mehserle in prison, not just the accidental discharge.
Till Police learn to act like fellow humans and not Police State Thugs, there will be animosity.
BART Police all too ready to inflict pain with their tasers was the primary cause of this tragedy.
Officer Pirone was the aggressor during the incident, both Pirone and Officer Marysol Dominici lied on their reports and lied again under oath in court trying to help Mehserle.
This all could have been avoided if BART Police didn't act like above the law Thugs.
Luc,
"This all could have been avoided if BART Police didn't act like above the law Thugs."
Yeah let's just ignore the fight that broke out that the officers were responding to. Let's just ignore the fact that Grant ran from officers. Let's just ignore the fact that Grant was resisting arrest. Let's ignore the fact that BART officers had just taken two guns off suspects an hour prior to this incident in two different incidents. None of that had anything to do with the cause and effect of that shooting did it?
It is unbelievable how you walk around with blinders on. Take your head out of your ass and acknowledge the BART police were trying to do their jobs and one made a massive mistake. It had nothing to do with the police acting like thugs and everything to do with a mistake made under stress.
JL, nobody is ignoring anything. What does taken two guns earlier have to do with anything? Remember it was 2:15am on 1-1-09, BART trains were pack full of New Years Party goers. When the train stopped at the station the only aggressors were BART Police. So much so, many riders outraged by BART PD took out their cameras to document Police acting badly.
Resisting Arrest, you sociopaths like using that as your excuse to commit crimes against humanity. We have all seen Police say stop resisting as they beat people senseless, it's what you guys say in case someone is video taping your criminal act.
I'm not the one with blinders, we have all seen your Blue blindness on this site. You always believe you are right even though the majority on this site don't, and the negative ratings and responses you receive prove that.
I hope you get fired before you kill someone just because they "Resisted Arrest".
"What does taken two guns earlier have to do with anything? Remember it was 2:15am on 1-1-09, BART trains were pack full of New Years Party goers."
It shows the type of crowd that was out on the trains that night. If the police are regularly pulling guns off of drunk New Years Eve party goers, they are going to handle fight calls aggressively to prevent gunfights and for their own safety. If there are a bunch of gang bangers fighting (and remember Grant had been in prison and had a prior gun charge so we aren't dealing with boy scouts here), police are going to have to be quick to taser to bring them under control.
Plus imagine having to roll around on the ground trying to arrest a person while hearing all the yells and jeers from the crowd. You are trying to arrest this one person and have no idea if the crowd is going to jump on your undefended back.
"When the train stopped at the station the only aggressors were BART Police. So much so, many riders outraged by BART PD took out their cameras to document Police acting badly."
Oh bullshit. People whip out their camera phones at any police action. You have a bunch of thugs yelling because the police are arresting another bunch of thugs. That happens no matter the reasons for the arrest. It proves nothing.
"Resisting Arrest, you sociopaths like using that as your excuse to commit crimes against humanity. We have all seen Police say stop resisting as they beat people senseless, it's what you guys say in case someone is video taping your criminal act."
Yes yes I know. You are being repressed. Poor you. Keeping turning every incident into some massive struggle against the fascist rulers. Keep ignoring the fact that deep down you know that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Please feel free to go arrest some violent gangbangers who probably have guns while surrounded by hundreds of other gangbangers. Make sure to do it without any force or profanity or without hurting anyone's little feelings. If you survive, please let me know how it turned out for you. Maybe you would come back with a better impression of the police after that.
"I hope you get fired before you kill someone just because they "Resisted Arrest"."
And I hope you never need the police that you seem to hate so much. Don't worry though. If you do call for help, we will still come and do our job.
The gunshots were a reaction to him starting to throw the knife. He started to use the knife as a weapon so the officer defended himself. If the officer had been quicker on the trigger, maybe the bullet would impacted prior to the knife leaving his hand. Since action beats reaction, it didn't work out but the cop is still justified.
"I now know where you stand, if you can construe that I have or had a weapon and have used it on a cop, "authorized" to fire at will."
Yes. That is indeed my position on it. Seriously.
"These SF cops didn't follow standard procedure which is to take him out of public view and then execute him."
The "tinfoil" part of your name fits you well.
Cops are subject to the same standards as any other citizen. The use of deadly force is only proper when you have a legitimate fear someone is going to do you or another serious bodily harm such that you are in fear for your life. Shooting a guy from beyond the reach of the knife while the guy is sitting down is not justified.
hhamlet,
You are right, but I think the driver also had the optional CRI-Cranial Rectal Inversion module added.
Seriously, arguing and swearing at a cop is one thing. Holding a deadly weapon in your hands while they aim weapons at you means you forfeit your life....
I don't know why San Fran doesn't allow cops to carry Tasers, do they really think the 9mm option is better?
The main problem with a lot of officers carrying TASERs, is they tend to use them inappropriately. For example, given the relative lethality of a 9mm vs a TASER, the progression of force goes Verbal, Pepper Spray, Baton, TASER, sidearm. But a lot of officers seem to believe that it's Verbal, TASER, Pepper, Baton, sidearm.
And that completely ignores the ones who use a TASER as a pain compliance tool. Officer gives an illegal order and is disobeyed? Officer administers torture until compliance is gained. There's a very good reason why, even if they are absolutely sure someone is aiming a TASER at them and not a more lethal weapon, that the officer will draw his sidearm in response.
The main problem with tasers is that many people have an mistaken idea about them.
"For example, given the relative lethality of a 9mm vs a TASER, the progression of force goes Verbal, Pepper Spray, Baton, TASER, sidearm. But a lot of officers seem to believe that it's Verbal, TASER, Pepper, Baton, sidearm."
According to current police training the force continuum looks like this:
Deadly Force
Less Lethal
Pepper Spray, Baton, Taser
Empty Hand Control
Verbal Commands
Officer Presence
The Taser is actually on the same level as a pepper spray or a baton. In fact my department classifies a baton strike as a higher level of force requiring a higher level of justification than a taser deployment.
Also some departments classify a taser as a higher level of force than OC and some make it equal. Most classify beanbag rounds as just under a firearm but over a taser due to the velocity of the rounds being fired.
The reason for this is that a baton causes broken bones. A taser deployment causes 5 seconds of pain then it is over with.
No matter what level a department has a taser at (and none have it higher than a baton that I know of), it is not meant to go up against a lethal weapon unless there is another officer nearby with lethal cover and it is NEVER EVER EVER meant to be used against a subject with a firearm.
In this situation I think a taser would have been ideal because there were multiple officers with guns and a taser would have locked the guy up allowing officers to grab him. He probably would have fallen out of the chair when tased and dropped the knife.
However SF is "progressive" and doesn't want a tool for the officers that some handwringers call a torture device.
I'm with you up to "A taser deployment causes 5 seconds of pain then it is over with." it still needs the small print of chances of death and or permanent injury.
Also don't see how Pepper Spray is more deadly then a taser. How dose some one die from Pepper Spray?
Isn't it a good thing the video was here to show exactly what happened.
if I I was faced with a mental patient who could easily throw his deadly weapon.
I would choose to go home that night to my family.
They shot him in the LEGS it tells me they had control and chose to shoot in a less lethal place.
This is not a case of a unarmed drunk whose only crime was being loud obnoxious and contempt of cop.
These officers were up against a weapon. They chose to go home alive.
Jeez, gimme a professional news shooter over this grossly amateur attempt to tell about an event that the shooter has opinions about but no facts.This video demonstrates why "citizen journalism" is often more of a punishment than a revelation.
What a cacophony of bystander uninformed comments punctuated with traffic noises and shaky vomit-inducing camera work with an apparently unwavering decision to not go across the street for a sidewalk shot from the other side to keep endless obstructing traffic from wiping away the view.
What is this the value of this on a professional photography site except to show how much training and thought goes into the usable capture of a moment?
I'm not sure who fired, but that doesn't look like a standard issue police firearm it looks to me like a bean bag gun, which sounds exactly like a normal gun (no idea which gun shot was the sidearm, the first or the second).
However outside of the sketchy information given by uninformed civilains, no evidence has been provided that the individual with the knife was no longer a threat.
Sounds to me like the guy threw the knife at one of the cops & as a reaction to that got shot. Theres a term for that: Contagious Gun Fire.
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