Pixiq

With all due respect, once Palestinian mothers stop teaching their children to kill Jews by blowing themselves up then I’ll have some pity for these protests.

Carlos, here’s something just as striking that you should read, “Palestinian Children Yearning Martyrdom, Encouraged by Parents” http://www.pmw.org.il/indoctrinating%20children%20to%20violence.htm#First

OK, then with all due respect, Ethan, you are an idiot. I can’t really see how can classify all of the Palestinian people like that. It’s like saying that all Americans are all in the KKK. I happen to have quite a few friends over there, both Palestinian and Israeli, and most of them, on both sides, feel a lot of regret as to what has been going on.
That hardly seems like the mark of a terrorist.

Scott,

Why am I an idiot? Because I dare to question why Israel is enforcing a blockade against a government that replied to an Israeli withdrawal in 2005 with war as opposed to creating functioning institutions? Because I dare call out Palestinians in Gaza who raise their kids with deep hatred for Jews and Christians?

The simple fact is, Hamas and the government in Gaza (and to some extent Fatah in the West Bank) have institutionalized the hatred of Jews and Christians. If you need proof, here you go:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/01/world/middleeast/01hamas.html?_r=3&pag...

But I’m the idiot for calling bullsh*t on a protest with people holding signs that read, “Israel Stop Your Genocide In Gaza” and “1.5M People Are Under Siege By Israel”…right.

BTW, I just watched the video for the first time and that lone Israel supporter is hilarious!

No, your an idiot for thinking that all Palestinians support the actions of such radical groups a Hamas. They don’t, it’s just that the ones that do get much more media attention. The majority on both sides desire peace, but the minority control both governments.
Oh and I just saw that video too, WTF is with that guy yelling fuck Palestine at the protesters. There were some kids there that couldn’t have been more than 10. Shameful behavior.

I agree with Scott that it is not good to generalize because the truth is, the majority of the people on both sides want peace, they just want to live and let live.

This is the way it was in Ireland during the height of “the Troubles” between the Catholics and the Protestants, and this is the way it is in Colombia during a four-decade civil war.

Ethan,

I’ve seen photos where Israeli kids are drawing designs and slogans on missiles before they get sent into Palestinian populations, so aren’t they being bred to hate Muslims?

Both sides are guilty of killing civilians, so is any side really “right”?

Rock on!, lone jew!

I’m glad you had your video camera, too. A sad, but hilarious, commentary on two sides who don’t listen to the shouts of pain and grief they are causing one another.

fuck these palestinians they are brought up to hate. if i was there i woud be standing right next to carlos. why should israel send anything to them, when ever we tried to open the doors of gaza to the society they always try or do a suicide act that causes innocent people in israel to be killed.they dont deserve shit from anyone. thank god i was not there because just from the palestinian saying he will kick his ass there would of been a problem because i would of faught

scott your naive as hell, i agree not all are bad terrorists but come on, first little kids should not even be there, you see how palestinians always try to do some shit to involve little kids so it makes people feel bad.you do not put little kids who do not know anything about this situation in a protest rally that is filled with hate from both sides. why is it that you see little arab kids with guns and a straped bomb to them, but when you look at jewish kids they dont even have anything close. these people are raised to hate everyone.

Scott,

Enjoy that video camera (go get into trouble with it), and I, too, enjoy the debate with you. Much more enjoyable when people can keep the insults out. Not that I’ve been a choir boy in the past, but I do try to learn from previous missteps.

Heh, those 3AM posts are a killer. I think I can honestly say that most Muslims aren’t fundamentalist, and probably pose very little risk to others. However, this is due in large part to not following the tenets of the Qur’an. Unfortunately, for the disaffected, all they have to do is turn to the Qur’an and read what’s written to give them a sense of vengeful purpose. This crosses all classes of Muslims — the middle class seems to be more active in Jihad than the lower class — and creates a reserve of willing participants who want to fight “The Man.” The fact that few religious leaders in Islam refute the violent Jihad, or monetary and material support for the Jihad, simply adds to the disaffected person’s sense of righteousness.

For bias, just taking one side, then sure, JihadWatch.org is firmly on one side of the debate. I think they’ve proven they’re on the truthful side of the debate, and they come up with reasons for why so many Muslim terrorist acts occur. The other side of the debate is usually lies or misperceptions, and the fact that so many high profile Muslim organizations have to lie (or don’t know the Qur’an) is telling in and of itself. However, I strongly contend that JihadWatch.org is not prejudicial; all judgments about the subject are made on fact.

As for any news source that’s unbiased, I know of none.

For the BBC, saying that they do well despite their time constraints and bias doesn’t make them a better news source. They try hard, but they still have a blatant bias that even other journalists mock.

The OIC will act as a block, but of course the individual countries will vote their own self interests. I suppose the OICs strongest influence is in committees that will bring issues to the floor. The Human Rights Commission is their biggest forum at the moment.

The Barabary Pirates were removed as a force around the mid 1800s, not really a time of Holy War. Also, if the Jizya was a sham, why did they get respect from other Muslim countries? If they attacked other Muslim nations’ shipping, they wouldn’t get the respect they garnered.

Even the recent piracy off Africa (Somalia mostly) is Islamic, and they try not to take Muslim ships. When they took over that oil tanker, they let it go pretty quickly.

Actually with my shiny new camera, I’m going to be making my first movie, a mockumentary, something about “A Day in the Life of the Canadian Border Guard”. That’s a joke waiting to happen.
Anyway, none of the five pillars of Islam, the basis of the faith, (for anyone who doesn’t know, it’s the Islamic version of the 10 Commandments), one is for saying that Allah is the only God, one for alms giving, one for praying 5 times a day, one for pilgramage, and the last one for fasting. It seems to me the absolute basis of Islam promotes peace and good works. Some of the parts of the book after that do have passages that seem to say destroy the infidels and such, but there are also other parts that talk against this. Most of the little sentences that seem to promote violence are taken out of context anyways.
Question: Which Jihad are you talking about anyway? There have been a good half-dozen called by various Islamic fundamentalists over the past 20 years. Are you referring to all of them?
You say that the 2 sides of the debate, the side which JihadWatch shows is the truth, and that the Islamic side is lying, but something can be the truth but also biased. For example, In the Six Day War Israel was at war with many Middle Eastern countrys. Thats true, with as close to un-bias as possible. It can also be said that, In the Six Day War, most Islamic countries attempted to destroy Israel, which led to war between them. Also true, but biased somewhat against the Muslims.
(the previous 2 statements were just examples, so please nobody try to debate me on them)
About the BBC, I was just trying to show you that your source saying the BBC was biased also hailed it as “doing a better job than any news organization on earth”, in the same article.
The Barbary Pirates might have been extinguished then, but their golden age was much earlier, roughly 1500′s-1600′s which still saw several holy wars, (most noteably the 30 Years War). They got respect from the Muslim countries because the pirates were damaging their political enemies and bringing plunder back to their land. They didn’t really need to anger their own country’s by attacking their own shipping because the Europeans just had so much of it.
I had heard about the piracy off of West Africa recently. Is the oil ship you are talking about the, MV Sirius Star? Becuase if it is, then the crew and ship are both still being held hostage. In fact Wikipedia says this, “Reuters news reported that a small faction of Somali Islamic rebels plan to attack MV Sirius Star to liberate it from the hijackers. The faction’s planned attack on the hijackers is seen in retaliation for them seizing a “Muslim” vessel.[23] Locals in Harardhere have said the threats of attack from Islamic militants have forced the pirates to leave the port and stay offshore at a distance of approximately 100 km (62 mi). A spokesman for the Islamic rebel group, Abdirahim Isse Adow, stated “We are against this act and we shall hunt the ship wherever it sails, and free it.”[22]” That makes it seem that at least some Muslims are rather against piracy.

Scott,

“A Day in the Life of the Canadian Border Guard”? That’s a 10 second film. :>

The five pillars don’t really tell how a Muslim should live. The nitty gritty is in the Qur’an. You could similarly dismiss the Christian crusades by saying Christians are really nice because of the 10 commandments.

You dismiss the “destroy the infidels” bits of the Qur’an like they’re meaningless, but every single day we see Muslims living and acting on those “out of context” bits. Can you dismiss the Ku Klux Klan as a bunch of nice Christians, and say everyone is taking the “kill the mud people” bits out of context? All the Imams and revered scholars of Islam say the later passages in the Qur’an supersede the earlier passages when there is a conflict of message, and the later passages are the ones that talk about killing all the infidels.

I am speaking of Jihad in general. There is no Caliph to direct a grand Jihad, but Jihad is waged by individual Muslims, and is urged by Imams worldwide.

I did already agree that JihadWatch.org was biased toward one side of the debate, but also warned against the term being used as saying JihadWatch.org is prejudiced. As far as I can tell, JihadWatch is in favor of Western values and against Islamic supremacism.

Barbary Pirates: “They didn’t really need to anger their own country’s [sic] by attacking their own shipping because the Europeans just had so much of it.” Yes, they didn’t need to attack the shipping of other Muslim countries, but they would also try not to attack other Muslims because they were allies. They were praised for attacking infidels and not attacking Muslims. They would get no praise if they were indiscriminate. Also, the 30 Years War doesn’t seem to be about Muslims at all. The active Holy Land crusades ended in 1270 and all were expelled by 1291.

Yes, the Sirius Star. You’re right, it’s still being held by pirates. I thought they had negotiated their way off of it a week after they took it, but I either misread or didn’t follow up. As an aside, it’s hypocritical to dismiss my links to Wikipedia about the Second Intifada as unreliable and then use Wikipedia as a source for your own information about Somali pirates.

“That makes it seem that at least some Muslims are rather against piracy.” In actuality, that Wikipedia statement shows that those Muslims are against Muslim vessels being hijacked. I see no mention of the other non-Muslim vessels that they’re going to liberate.

I’m not trying to say that all Muslims understands or even care about the context in which many of the passages were written. Mostly for the passages that seem to promote killing of the infidel, you just need to look at the surrounding passages, and have an understanding of the time that it was written. Of course there will always be some bad apples who don’t care, and just want an excuse to go around killing people, but they are outnumbered by the moderates.
I personally think that the Qur’an, (like most holy books for that matter), has lots of contradictions.
Kill the mud people? I’m a bit confused there.
OK Jihad in general, because there is no Caliph to lead one, but there have been many called for different purposes, i.e. Israelis out of Palestine, U.S. out of Iraq. When a Jihad is called it is usually specific in it’s goals.
For the Barbary Pirates, they probably would have attacked Muslim ships if they needed too, but as there was such an abundance of European ships, it was probably just easier to attack them and have a place to go back to. For the powers it was mostly political, not religious.
With the 30 Years War, I was just making the point that it was still in the age of holy wars, didn’t have to be Christian vs. Muslim to be a holy war.
Well the only reason I couldn’t take the Wikipedia article about the Second Intifada, because at the top of the article, (this was back when you posted the link), it’s neutrality was disputed, and even now there are several problems with the article. I didn’t dismiss it because it was on Wikipedia.
As for the Muslim rebels that are trying to liberate a ship, I don’t actually know of any other ships that are hostage right now, there may be but I don’t know about them. I was just trying to make the point that the Muslims weren’t supporting the piracy.
Have a nice day and let me leave you with the following verses from the Qur’an:
Qur’an 60:7-8:
“It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just.”

Scott,

The bad apples are the ones we have to deal with, and unfortunately for us, there are a lot more than a few. With about 2.5 million Muslims in the U.S., 13% think suicide bombing is justified; that’s 325,000 Muslims in the United States alone.
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

Holy books having contradictions: agreed.

Mud people = non-White.

Barbary pirates: Islam is both political and religious. It is a rigid, whole-life system.

30 Years War: since we’re talking about Muslim vs. Jew/Christian in the context of Israel and Gaza/Judea/Samaria, mentioning a Christian holy war (at the beginning) between Christian sects in the context of the Muslim Barbary Pirates being active during the “holy wars” is pretty pointless.

Wikipedia: fair enough, though I don’t know a single source that wouldn’t be disputed.

Sirius Star: And I was making the point that those Muslims aren’t against taking a ship, they’re against a Muslim ship being taken. “The faction’s planned attack on the hijackers is seen in retaliation for them seizing a “Muslim” vessel.[23]”

And a passage for you:
Qur’an 60:9 “Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.”

Don’t agree with Allah? Can’t be friends. Looked upon as an occupier of Muslim land? Can’t be friends. Seems rather appropriate for this discussion.

That is an extraordinarily interesting study, thanks for finding it. I know that there are a lot of bad Muslims, the point I’m trying to make is that Islam does not have to be a violent religion. Your percentage was wrong though, it said 8%, but close enough.
30 Years War: OK fine I submit, but the age of the Barbary Pirates was still in that time period.
Wikipedia: With topics this controversial, everything is usually disputed.
Sirius Star: Keep in mind that this is just a small band of Muslims looking to take it back over. I’m sure there are plenty of Muslims who disapprove of piracy in general. It’s been a long time since the Barbary Pirates.
It seems to me the passage of the Qur’an just proves my point more clearly. Many of the passages in the Qur’an that have been taken to mean violence, are either against specific targets in their early history, (The Torah does this also), or mostly mean in defence of Islam itself.
It’s truly a shame that so many people out there think that all of this is worth killing each other over for centuries.

Scott,

Glad you like the study, I found it at JihadWatch. As for the percentage, it is 13%, with 8% saying suicide bombings are justified always or sometimes, and 5% saying it’s rarely justified (page 60). Also remember that this is a public study, and lying abut true feelings would be politic, especially with such a touchy subject, yet 13% still said there is justification.

“There have been more than 100 pirate attacks this year off Somalia and in one of the world’s busiest sea lanes — the Gulf of Aden.” (ABC News) This is not an isolated incident, and Somalia is 80% controlled by Islamic groups, so it’s highly likely that all the pirates are Muslim. They may not have started because of Islamic principles, but they will use those principles when convenient.

“Many of the passages in the Qur’an that have been taken to mean violence, are either against specific targets in their early history, (The Torah does this also), or mostly mean in defence of Islam itself.” I think this is a real problem we’re facing today, reinterpreting what the book actually says. Context is important, but these phrases of hate and destruction are still in the book, still valid to Muslims, and are still used as justification for terrorist attacks and all-out war. We can discount these phrases, and hope that more moderate Muslims will turn the tide for us, but as it stands we’re dealing with millions of Muslims who take this stuff seriously, many more millions who go along with it because they either believe it, too, or don’t want to rock the boat, and a virtually non-existant Muslim voice against the violent passages.

Far too many of the moderates we look to for reason against madness are also in the tank with groups who endorse and execute the Jihad ideology. CAIR, for instance, is supposed to be on the side of Western values, but as an unindicted co-conspirator with the Holy Land Foundation charity scam that funneled money to Hamas — along with many other instances of double-speak and wishy-washy wording — we find that the people we turn to for help are also apologists for, and actively supporting, the Jihad against us.

The most damning evidence is the first-person accounts from people who used to be Muslim and who escaped Islamic rule to tell us their stories of actual life under such rule. Check out YouTube for Brigitte Gabriel, who tells her story of living in Lebanon when Islam took over. We find that the problem isn’t between Arabs, nor between the Lebanese people, but simply Islam against everyone else. They win by being brutal, and they continue to be a force that we haven’t properly dealt with.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=brigitte+gabriel

Note: Brigitte Gabriel is actually Christian, while I was referring to Muslim converts like Walid Shoebat and Wafa Sultan as Muslims who escaped Islamic rule.

Oh OK i see how you get the 13% now. People don’t need to lie about their true feelings on a scientific survey though, they are usually anonymous .
Yes pirate attacks have picked up alot lately, I don’t know why. I doubt that even if the pirates are all Muslim, that that is why they are attacking the ships. They are doing it because much of the situation in Somalia is desperate, and that grows desperate people.
“I think this is a real problem we’re facing today, reinterpreting what the book actually says. ” I totally agree. Islam isn’t a violent religon at heart, but when you get some people that think it is in positions of teaching, then the problem grows serious. In a weird sort of way, many of the violent people are brainwashed.
Had to look up CAIR, (had never heard of it), and after looking over it, it looks kind of cheesy. Almost looks like they are trying to rip off the IRS. No organization has that many bookkeeping problems. And the Holy Land Foundation, that’s just terrible. I feel bad for the people who donated money, expecting it to go to help people in real need.
I saw the video’s but am still not entirely sure of the situation she was talking about, is this Black September or after Black September?
I feel bad for her, but can’t you compare that to the blockade at the Gaza Strip, where soldiers stop people and turn them back into the area to face starvation, (and looking at more recent news), massive air strikes?
As for Walid Shoebat, I saw his website, (nothing useful), then I saw on his Wikipedia page, he has been accused of lying about his past, and of even being a Christian in disguise all along. I seriously doubt that last one, but it does call into question the authenticity of what he says.
Wafa Sultan is different however. Her argument actually seems a lot like yours.
As always, Have a good day,
Scott.

Scott,

“Islam isn’t a violent relig[i]on at heart[...]” Unfortunately for us, it is. One has to actually be a “bad” Muslim to be non-violent; you have to ignore parts of the Qur’an to live non-violently. The best example of a Muslim is Mohammed, as all the scholars say, and Mohammed was a violent man. Therefore, being a good Muslim means being violent. It’s all really that simple and factual. Those who are acting violently are not perverting Islam, they are practicing it.

What the world needs is an Islamic Reformation, something like what Christianity had, to truly disassociate Islam from its violent roots… though Christianity doesn’t have violent roots — it had to be perverted to endorse blind violence — and even with the Crusades, they were a defensive religious war against Islam’s encroachment on Christian lands. However, those who do push for removing Jihad from Islam (only one sect in Asia of which I’ve heard) are assaulted, bullied and killed by average Muslims.

CAIR is an organization that has been operating for quite a while and is used as a Muslim viewpoint source on all television networks. This is not a rinky-dink operation, they are a national organization with a great deal of influence. They are also now operating illegally since the Holy Land Foundation verdict.

Black September: Lebanon seems to have been ruined after that.

If you looked at Gaza in a vacuum, you could view it like that. However, Hamas has been shelling Israel for years with very little response. If such shelling was going on in any other Western country, there would be a swift and overpowering response to end such blatant hostility. The fact that Israel has had to put up with such red-eyed hatred and unprovoked violence because of UN pressure is a travesty.

Be well.

Clearly, there is one person who is using offensive and provocative language: F**k Palestine. The other side is not.

The offensive phrase is without a clear message and is acting solely on impulse. Later he attempts to justify his comments as free speech, but that soon changes to condemning Palestinian “terrorism.”

This misses the premise of the protest: to condemn an economic blockade of the Gaza Strip , which has also been condemned by the President of the UN General Assembly, the UN Secretary General and human rights organizations like Amnesty International.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/gaza-reduced-bare-surviv...

Well if you, “have to ignore parts of the Qur’an to live non-violently”, then you have to do the same with the the Old Testament, and therefore both Christianity and Judaism. Do you remember the part where Moses delivered the Jews out of Egypt, and God told them to fight a war to win land? Exactly the same thing. Personally I ignore most of the morally objectionable things that I find and focus on the good.
Mohammed might have been a violent man, I don’t know, but he did lead a war in the early days of Islam against the pagan armies out of Mecca. Of course it was in a attempt to defend a fledgling group of people, (Muslims), but it was still war. A religion born in war, and much of the Qur’an was written during it. Much is probably meant specifically for that war.
Islamic Reformation would be nice. A cleaning of house, I think the phrase goes.
Seriously though, the Crusades were not defensive for the Christians. Actually before the Crusades, the Muslims that ruled Jerusalem allowed worship of all religions, with very little persecution.
Black September: Seems your right about that.
Yes I know about the rocket attacks, but it also seems that the blockade has done nothing to stop them.
I don’t care about Israel killing violent Hamas, the Israeli’s have a perfect right to protect their country, but I’m sure they can do it in a much better manner than massive scale air strikes. I’m only concerned about the innocents, children and people who had no part in the violence.

Scott,

The religious equivalence simply doesn’t work when comparing Islam to Judaism and Christianity. Violence in Judaism and Christianity does not have a never-ending imperative against current religions, while Islam does. You equate apples to oranges when you equate Islam to Judaism and Christianity.

Read about Mohammed. He waged war against all other religions, it wasn’t usually defensive except when he was starting the religion and bullying people to convert to Islam or pay for protection, and he killed Christians and Jews when they wouldn’t convert to Islam or pay him the protection money (Jizya). The Qur’an doesn’t mention Christians and Jews because he fought pagan armies. Mohammed was a marauder, and his religion is based on the principles of a marauder.

Seriously, who was in charge of Jerusalem before Muslims came along? Do you think the rulers of Jerusalem just said, “Oh, look, Muslims, let’s let them run Jerusalem because they won’t persecute us much”? No, Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies around 638, and they didn’t stop until they conquered all of north Africa, much of the Middle East, and part of Europe, where they were were finally beaten and could expand by the sword no longer. This, of course, is an overly simple distillation of what actually happened, but accurate nonetheless.

The naval blockade has prevented Hamas from gratuitously rearming, though not totally, and has saved countless Israelis from needlessly being killed though escalated rocket attacks or terror operations within Israel. As for the massive air strikes, precision weaponry and high-tech reconnaissance reduces civilian casualties, but some will obviously occur, especially because Hamas purposely builds rocket installations, launchers, and weapons factories within the civilian population.

Hamas plays dirty pool, they cry foul when they’re struck and civilians are killed, and all the while Israel is the bad guy even while allowing thousands of tons of aid into Gaza, repairing the sewerage and electric system during this offensive, and Hamas blocks its citizens from leaving through the Egyptian Rafah gate. A gate, I might add, that Egypt usually keeps sealed tight because they don’t want Hamas or Gaza Arabs entering Egypt. The tunnels you may’ve heard about are built by Hamas to get around Egyptian patrols and import amazing amounts of goods and weapons. Tunnels leading toward Israel are usually blown up, but not always, leading to kidnappings of Israeli soldiers and citizens, as well as civilian terror operations.

Party on.

You know this all seems rather backwards. Not your ideas, but the fact that Islam was founded in war, then got a little more peaceful, then the Crusades messed the whole thing up, then relitivily peaceful again until the 1900′s. Christianity is the opposite. Pretty violent until the 1900′s.
Actually the people who controlled Jerusalem before the Muslim invasion, (the Romans for about 800 years, then the Persians for the last few), were terrible to the Jews who lived there. Constantine actually forbid Jews from entering the city, which was followed for hundreds of years. When the Muslims captured it, they allowed the Jews back in. A step up wouldn’t you say?
If the Israeli’s knew where the targets were, why didn’t they just send in strike teams to take them out? Yes bombing is easier, but much less loss to the innocents.
Hamas does play dirty, it’s true.
When did they start allowing aid in? I missed that.
Had never heard of the tunnels, though.
It’s probably easy to believe, but before I started this whole debate, I only had a very basic understanding of the whole conflict and the issues. Lots more research than I expected. If only I worked this hard on my papers at school, I’d get a full scholarship!!;)

Scott,

It seems Christianity started off weak and grew stronger over time, while Islam started off strong with war and lost strength over time. The more recent turn around is not really a change in strength between the two religions, it’s more of Christianity being less fundamental while Islam is strong on petro-dollars and expanding once again. A couple world wars in the bastion of Christianity, Europe, also helped put a boot in its ass.

A step up for access to Jerusalem? I suppose, but replacing one master with another is always a step sideways.

Very few in Gaza are sympathetic to Israel, so there’s little reason to be nice to the populace. Israel gave warning to those in targeted houses before they started the recent bombing, and I’d call that highly moral of them. They are trying their best to destroy material more than civilians, but there’s no way to win against Hamas and save every civilian. It’s impractical, and they won’t get any brownie points from anyone for doing it, so it’s better for them to strike from the air. It IS war, after all. It’s never pretty, it’s always vicious when fought properly, and it has to be in order to win. And I do hope Israel wins instead of does a half measure and tries to negotiate yet again with a Hamas government that explicitly states in its charter that it will not recognize Israel and will not stop fighting until all of “Palestine” is free of Jews. Such genocidal animosity should be met with fierce opposition, and eliminated if possible.

Israel has allowed aid in most of the time, and 30 trucks of humanitarian aid went through yesterday.
http://74.125.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=ar%7Cen&u=http://www.maa...

Trying to follow Middle East religio-politics is a full time job. Definitely put your time and energy into getting the scholarship… you’ll be happier in the end. :>

Wait the World Wars put a boot in who’s ass? Christian or Muslim?
I woudln’t be sympathetic to anybody who drops bombs on me either. The problem is that if anybody stands up to Hamas, they are humiliated and usually killed. It’s not really anti-Israeli sentiment, it’s fear of Hamas that keeps the people from doing anything.
Where did you find the thing about the citizens in target houses being warned before bombed? I can’t find it, although it seems like something the U.S. said they did before they bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not that I’m comparing the 2 bombing.
So if Israel were to win, what would happen? They can’t win unless they somehow manage to destroy all of Hamas, members and supplies. That does not seem likely. Unlikely too that Hamas would win, what with Israel having one of the most highly trained armies in the world. To me it looks like a dead-lock. The same one that has been devastating the region for ages.
Hmmm ok I see the aid thing now. Well at least one good thing has happened then.

Maybe I should stay out of religion and political conversations. It seems that nobody can really win.

Oh wait, I see the warning thing now. But apparently most of the Gazans were caught unawares.

Scott,

Christianity.

Israel calls targets before bombing:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24855309-663,00.html
They’ve done this often, and while it seems strategically stupid, I guess they’d be vilified even more if they didn’t do it and civilians died when they attacked these military targets embedded in civilian population centers.

[Update: So you've seen it, and some Gazans didn't listen and got killed. Stupid is as stupid does.]

I suppose a win would be disarming Hamas and other enemies within Gaza, scaring them enough to make them stop their Jihad. You can’t kill an ideology, but you can make practicing that ideology very expensive, in men and material, to the provocateurs.

Remember, aid has been going through the gates, even when attacked with rockets, most of the time. Israel is really the only reason Gaza runs. If Israel actually cut them off (which they should, because they are enemies), then Gaza would plunge into chaos.

This conversation isn’t really about winning, it’s about knowing the facts and picking a side based on what you value. I defend Israel because they act with Western values, values with which I agree. Hamas, Fatah, and Islam in its fundamental form acts directly against Western values, and when people defend these organizations, I am mystified at why. Islamic fundamentalists, if they had their way, would kill with murderous glee anyone who didn’t kowtow to Shari’a law, and defending such barbarity is anathema to my values.

Donkeyrock,

The great Islamic Ottoman Empire was on the Germans side in WW1 and they got defeated. Actually it’s how the British ended up with control of most of the middle east, and them in turn handing it off to the league of nations started this big mess.
They might have called the people living close by, but what about people just walking to work or something?
If Israel did cut them off totally, (which they should not do), then there would be mass starvation in the Gaza Strip. It would be genocide.
I am not actually totally for anybody. This is all partialy everybody’s fault, from Britain and the Leauge of Nations to Palitsine, the new Jordan, most of the middle east and Israel.
Nobody is blameless here.
I’m not going to stand up for Hamas because they are obviously bad people, using civilians as shields for attacks.
Fatah has much less power than they did, which when they did have it, many were corrupt, i.e. Arafat.
I will not agree however that Islam is fundamentally against Western Values. The fundamentalists, yes, but that is only a small part of the Muslim race. I don’t defend the fundamentalists, I choose to defend the peaceful mass of the moderate or even, (not many of them), the liberal Muslim.

I think that unfortunately this conflict will go on for another 50, or even 100 years before somebody important realizes that it is never going to end.

Scott,

I think you misinterpreted what I meant. With two world wars centered in Europe, tens of millions of Christians died, diminishing the strength of Christianity. There are other factors, but the wars certainly took a bite out of Christianity’s influence in Europe.

I understand you’re worried about civilian casualties, but wars are not clean. Israel has every right to defend itself from attack, and to destroy any threat to their sovereignty. They don’t have to call anyone before they bomb. They don’t have to use precision weapons. They don’t have to care one ounce about civilian casualties, but they do, and that morality is the antithesis of their enemies. They go above and beyond what would be expected, and they are still vilified. It’s quite astounding.

If Israel stopped helping its sworn enemy, it would not even be close to genocide, in definition or in fact.

Define the problem before you lay blame. What is “This”? For what are all these nations to blame? Define that, and then we can talk about who’s to blame.

So by saying Islam isn’t against Western values, you’re saying that the many portions of the Qur’an that call for killing Jews, Christians, and anyone who doesn’t submit to Islam are compatible with Western values? The Qur’anic wife beating and myriad female-diminishing tenets? Death for adulterers? Hanging for being gay? Chopping off hands and feet for theft? This is real Islam, and without a reformation — without getting rid of the 7th century thinking that is practiced even today — there is no compatibility.

You speak of moderate and liberal Muslims, but they are few and far between. We aren’t fighting against these so-called moderates, we’re fighting against millions of Muslims who either take up arms against the West, or support such fighters with money, material and/or silence when atrocities in the name of Allah are perpetrated. Islam, by definition, is not compatible with secular government. There’s an obvious reason why there are 57 members of the OIC and not one member of an Organization of the Christian Conference, and that’s because Islam and government are one and the same. Christianity allows for separation of Church and State (render unto Caesar…). Judaism, being the model for both Christianity and Islam, is a tougher call, but the actions of Israel — and Jews in general — clearly show that Judaism is more in line with separation of religion and State.

Also, there is no Muslim race. Islam is not a race, it is nominally a religion. No need to confuse the issue with misrepresentation.

(about Muslim race, sorry, sorry my mistake, I even learned that in 7th grade history too. ouch. I mean the total Muslim population when I said race.)

Ok yeah I see what you mean about the world wars, yes I misunderstood sorry about that too.

They do not actually go above and beyond what is expected, because if they had done the air strikes without notifying anybody and killed many more civilians than they did, it would be an international incident almost. Nearly every country would sanction Israel.
In fact after this last attack the Bush admisnistration was the ONLY government to say it was just Hamas’s fault. Most of Europe laid the blame at Hamas and Israel.
If Israel cut off humanitarian supplies to the area, people, innocent people, would starve to death. I don’t think you quite realize that the average person in Gaza is quite malnourished on a normal diet. It would not take much to starve them.

“So by saying Islam isn’t against Western values, you’re saying that the many portions of the Qur’an that call for killing Jews, Christians, and anyone who doesn’t submit to Islam are compatible with Western values?”.
There are many portions of the Old Testement that call out for killing God’s enimies, and the majority of the laws in the Old Testement carry the punishment of death. The only difference is that some of the laws in the Qur’an are still used. The Islam religion has had about 650 less years than Christianity to mature, and thousands less that Judaism.
You know I find it strange how you say that most Palistinians support Hamas and yet there are, (roughly speaking), 10.5 million Palistinians. Hamas only has a membership, (last time I checked, and this is comming from Hamas itself so is probably inflated), of 20,000. That does not seem like the majority to me.
Everybody hears a lot about the violence of Islam, especially from the middle east. But only 20% of Muslim are in the middle east.
Many of the rest are in the Indian Subcontinent,(30%) or Indonesia(about 15%). Even America itself has a relativity large number,(about 8 million). You say that Islam is violent, so where is this high level of violence coming from the majority. India has a secular government and a large portion of it’s people are Muslim. As I remember it, India itself was just hit by a terror attack.
I know that there are lots of bad Muslims, but the large majority are peaceful.
Separation of church and state. Wish they had that. It would make it easier for the majority of silent moderates to make a fair government.
Good day.

Well, John, look at everything you just said. Seems to me like there is a lot of evidence that you have been brought up to hate Palestinians.

Sean, I know little kids shouldn’t be there, kids should never be involved in something they don’t understand, and don’t know the consequences for, but there is a long history of children in protests, M.L.K. Jr., Ghandi, ect. It’s not just Palestinians. Not that I agree with it. And you do know that the Israeli’s require all of their citizens to serve a mandatory 2 years in the armed forces? What does that say about their peaceful society?

Mambi Watch, I entirely agree.

Scott,

Yes, Israel does go above and beyond.
“Under the Geneva Conventions, as well as customary international law, if a military objective, such as a missile launcher or weapons stockpile, is placed in the heart of a civilian area, it does not cease being a lawful military objective. The primary responsibility for civilian causalities arising from the ’shielding’ lies with the party that deliberately placed civilians at risk.”
http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=6917
Israel could stop calling and leafletting and using the radio to warn their targets and still be well within the Geneva Convention of conducting a gentleman’s war.

As for so many countries being against Israel’s response to years of missile attacks from Gaza on Israel’s civilian population, all they see is a big bully hurting poor little Gaza. There was not a peep out of these people while Israel was shelled with missiles and mortars for years, while terror was instilled in the population, property destroyed and lives lost. I would not expect these leaders to allow such an offensive against their country for one day, let alone for years, yet they have the audacity to condemn an internationally lawful response to naked aggression. Being strong and effective makes Israel the bad guy in their eyes, but Israel is clearly in the right.

The US cut off supplies to Cuba, was that genocide? No, Cuba is an enemy, and we have no moral or legal obligation to support our enemy. Israel has no moral or legal obligation to support Gaza, but they do, and that makes Israel highly moral, and probably stupid for being so naive as to think helping Gazans would win Gazan gratitude.

Whether Muslim actions are a matter of religious maturity is debatable, and something with which I disagree, but I don’t think we should have to wait for Islam to mature so the world can live more peacefully.

Hamas, in 2005, was voted into power with 57% of the seats in parliament. That’s most people in Gaza.

Violence in Islam is worldwide. Europe, US, Asia, etc. For information about all Islamic attacks, go to [link in next post]

If there was no pressure from the clergy, most Muslims might live peacefully. Might. However, every single day, the clerics and imams incite to hatred the Muslim populations in countries around the world, and they use the Qur’an and Hadith to do this. This is one reason why I think a reformation of Islam is the only way out, and primarily a renunciation of Jihad. Take away the violence and we can at least talk about peace.

Be well.

Omitted link from previous post: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

I was not saying that Israel has to inform the public by any international agreement or anything.
As for the most of the countries of the world, in fact most of them throughout the years have been publicly against the rocket attacks into Israel.
I am also not really sure why Israel waited this long to strike. I know that both sides were supposed to have a cease-fire, which both claim the other one ignored in some way.
The Cuba-Gaza argument does not work. 1:Cuba was an island, allied to the Soviet Union, and got supplies from many countries. The U.S. did not stop people from leaving and to my knowledge the only time they stopped anyone from entering was during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
2:Even if the U.S. had somehow stopped anything from entering, Cuba is a lush island, capable of growing it’s own food, (unlike the desert-like Gaza, which even if it was all farmland, still has far too many people to support.) Israel is not supporting the enemy by letting humanitarian aid in, which is from other countries even. They are simply doing the absolute minimum to keep total starvation from happening.
I’m also not entirely sure that Islam maturity is to blame for the attacks, but I do know that Islamic scholars have had much less time to figure out what things mean. Violent people will do violent things no matter how old a religion is.
I think that the majority of the problem is not the clerics, but the extremist-run schools that are the primary education throughout the middle east. The children are being indoctrinated with fundamentalist ideals from early age.
Last link: seriously find another site. That one is the most prejudiced site that I have actually ever seen.
At the top it says, Islam: religion of peace, (and a lot of dead bodies).
I know that there has been other violence in other countries, but how few there have been, looks to me to mean most Muslims lead peaceful lives.

Scott,

True, you didn’t say anything about Israel having to inform people because of an international agreement, but you did say they don’t go above and beyond what they need to do (and I showed you what they need to do), and that if they didn’t inform civilians when they attacked that there might be an international incident and most nations would sanction Israel. Since no other country on this planet does what Israel does to spare civilian populations, this is an incredibly high standard you’re setting for this one country. I’m curious why you think Israel should be put to such a high standard while Gaza can fire missiles and mortars directly at civilian populations, maliciously and without warning, and expect no sanctions whatsoever?

The US prevented Cubans from entering the US (legally). Israel does the same with Gazans. Castro prevented Cubans from leaving Cuba. Hamas does the same with Gazans.

Gaza is more than capable of supplying food to its citizens. Israel occupies the same type of land, they prosper. When Israel was in Gaza, there was plenty of food. Where did it all go? Greenhouses left after Israel left Gaza were turned into tunnel entrances and missile bases, so that’s a hint. The leadership of Gaza has destroyed Gaza, not Israel.

Gazans are not starving, and there is yet to be a reported death from starvation. That is a lie. Humanitarian aid is offered and sent through Israel, why is it not offered by and sent through Egypt? Egypt has a border with Gaza, why aren’t they helping Gazans? Why does Egypt keep Rafah closed? Israel should not be accepting any humanitarian shipments for Gaza, it should go through Egypt, a supposed ally of Gaza and former occupier of Gaza. If someone tried to kill you, would you willingly help them live — send them money and food, maintain their house — all while they keep attempting to kill you? This is what Israel is doing, hoping Gazans see that Israel isn’t bad, but it just doesn’t work. Israel supplies electricity to Gaza. Israel helps fix Gaza’s sewerage problem. This is all Hamas’s job, but they don’t do their job. Hamas and Gazans always get a pass for acting like violent children, while Israel is castigated for acting like a highly responsible adult. Israel is hardly doing the “absolute minimum” to help Gazans, and I’m very surprised you’ve come to that conclusion.

The clerics and imams run the madrassas.

Last link: seriously, no, I won’t find another site. It’s a reputable site and the tagline is accurate. Prove me wrong. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

I’m kinda stupefied by your last comment. At what point would you consider Islam to be non-peaceful? What percentage of Muslims have to carry out violent attacks on civilian populations before they’re considered a risk in your book? What percentage of Muslims who vote into power groups that promote hatred of other religions and barbaric codes of conduct (Shari’a Law) would be enough for you to say, “Maybe those people are bad because they voted in a group I know is bad because they stand for bad things”? What’s your yardstick?

True Hamas has been firing mortar and rockets into Israel for years. But you miss the fact that Israel has been retaliating for years. It’s not like they took the pounding peacefully and only now decided to fight back.
But all of Gaza’s border lies with either Israel, the Mediterranean, (controlled by Israel), or Egypt who has attempted to stay clear of the entire mess. Egypt is helping Gazan’s but are generally making sure that they don’t support Hamas. They are providing some medical assistance and some food.
You also might not realize that Gaza is one of the most tightly packed piece of land, (in humans), in the world. In that little bit of desert, there are an estimated 1.4 million people. Do you have any idea of how hard it is to feed 1.4 million people? Do you think that the trickle that Israel lets through is really enough? This is from a U.N. humanitarian website, “UN AID:ISRAEL ALLOWED trucks carrying relief supplies into Gaza yesterday but the UN has warned that the trickle of aid is not enough to address chronic humanitarian needs as the Israeli bombardment of the territory enters its fourth day.” http://www.un.org/unrwa/news/articles/2008/irishtimes_30dec08.html

Of course when Hamas destroyed several portions of the wall between the Gaza Strip and Egypt, and thousands ran there for food, the Egyptian government kindly let them only made sure that they didn’t bring weapons back with them.
I still don’t, and will probably never agree with your thoughts that almost all Gazans are violent. Most just want the madness to cease. Recent polls show that a majority of Israeli’s and Palestinians want to try to negotiate, but both of their governments are just too stubborn to stop this fight.
Yes clerics do run the madrassas. Which is the main source of the problem, (see 3 cups of tea, I have already donated to the cause of building free moderate schools, which has been approved by the leaders of Islam).
I’m not saying that radical Islam is not a threat, I’m just saying that it seems that a very large portion is not radical.
Many of the countries that have voted an extremist in either had nobody else running or usually had a different reason for voting for them.
“Maybe those people are bad because they voted in a group I know is bad because they stand for bad things”? What’s your yardstick?”
I don’t really know what this means.

The site. I’m not going to argue with you, because I obviously can’t convince you, but I won’t respond to anything referencing that site either.

One question that has been burning in my mind ever since we started. It is completely off topic and I’m just curious. How did you come up with the name Donkeyrock?

Scott,

What’s your point of stating the fact that Israel sometimes retaliated to Hamas aggression?

“Egypt who has attempted to stay clear of the entire mess”
Egypt has actively blocked Gazans from entering Egypt, occasionally shooting at those who attempt to cross.

“Egypt is helping Gazan’s but are generally making sure that they don’t support Hamas. They are providing some medical assistance and some food.”
Yes, just recently they offered up a few ambulances and a paltry amount of food. Hamas rejected it all.

“You also might not realize that Gaza is one of the most tightly packed piece of land, (in humans), in the world. In that little bit of desert, there are an estimated 1.4 million people.”
—
Tel Aviv
7,445 people/sq km
(385,000 people, 51.8 sq km)
—
Gaza Strip per CIA projection
4,270 people/sq km
(1,537,269 population July 2008, 360 sq km)
—

“Do you think that the trickle that Israel lets through is really enough?”
It’s more than any country should allow to a sworn enemy, especially one who’s bent on destroying you.

“un[dot]org/unrwa/”
UNRWA are inveterate liars who have no credibility.

“thousands ran there for food”
* The percentages of expenditures is following :
- 39% on Food and medicine.
- 19% on Oil products and Tobacco.
- 14% on Concrete and construction materials.
- 7.5% on electronics , home appliances and means of transportation.
- 7.5% on Clothes and shoes.
- 7% on transportation and communication.
- 6% on other stuff
This is according to the Future Research Centre in Palestine.

“I still don’t, and will probably never agree with your thoughts that almost all Gazans are violent. Most just want the madness to cease. Recent polls show that a majority of Israeli’s and Palestinians want to try to negotiate, but both of their governments are just too stubborn to stop this fight.”
From: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/world/middleeast/19mideast.html?_r=2
“Published: March 19, 2008
RAMALLAH, West Bank — A new poll shows that an overwhelming majority of Palestinians support the attack this month on a Jewish seminary in Jerusalem that killed eight young men, most of them teenagers, an indication of the alarming level of Israeli-Palestinian tension in recent weeks. [DR: 91% in Gaza approve of this killing of civilian students; does this tell you anything?]
The survey also shows unprecedented support for the shooting of rockets on Israeli towns from the Gaza Strip and for the end of the peace negotiations between Palestinian and Israeli leaders.”

Donkeyrock: only people I know well get to find out. You’ll have to buy me a beer. :>

My point to saying that Israel retaliates to Hamas agression was to point out the fact that Israel does not just sit there and get hit. Hamas and Israel have been activly fighting each other for years. Bombings, rocket attacks, kidnap on both sides.

Egypt: exactly; staying clear of the mess.

Well while Tel Aviv has open land around it in which to grow food, most of the Gaza strip is a couple of big cities. Tel Aviv I’m sure you noticed is 1/5 the size of the Gaza strip in population.

“It’s more than any country should allow to a sworn enemy, especially one who’s bent on destroying you.” So the children are all bent on the Israeli’s destruction too?

As for UNRWA, I had never really heard of them before, but if you have evidence that they are, inveterate liars who have no credibility”, I wouldn’t mind seeing it.

thousands did run for food. I’m not seeing the problem.

I said recent polls. That one is nearly a year old. Lots of things have changed. The bombing has shown a lot of people what the future could be like if everything keeps escalating.

I would buy you a beer, but I’m only 18. hehe.

Scott,

Ah, the moral equivalence argument. This argument ignores the fact that Islamic Arabs initiated the aggression and equates Islamic targeting of civilians to legitimate military targets.

Egypt: actively stirring the pot.

Simple fact, Tel Aviv has a higher population density than Gaza. Gaza has more land, so they can grow their own food, no problem.

You mention the children why? Probably because they are supposed to be blameless, though they are active in Jihad because their parents teach them to hate Israel and Jews. As with setting missile emplacements in civilian populations means that when they are attacked the civilian deaths are blamed on those who put military targets in civilian areas, so too are Gazan parents to blame for what happens to their children. Did these concerned parents rise up against Hamas and try to make peace? No. Did they teach their children that Israel is helping them? No. They sow hate and they reap death.

UNRWA: Google “UNRWA lies” (without quotes).

Thousands more ran for ipods. Must not be very hungry.

Eight months old is pretty recent. Show me another, more recent poll, preferably before they were pounded and started to see the error of their ways.

In three years come buy me a beer and I’ll tell you. I think you’ll enjoy the story. :> (Maybe sooner if we can get rid of the ridiculous law that you have to be 21 to legally drink alcohol.)

God bless this lone Jew. I would like to join him and other Israelis to counter the Palestinian “victims” who are full of shit.

I wish that these Palestinians could be deported back to Gaza so Israel can wipe them out more easily. It makes me sick how they spew propaganda that everybody eats up.

Fuck Palestine, may Israel “liberate” you to “paradise” to screw your 72 virgin donkeys.

Donkeyrock,
The Arabs might have initiated the violence but nearly all of the ones who did are dead. You can’t blame a group of people for what their ancestors did.
I can’t believe you are actually blaming the children for their own deaths. The entire fact of them being children means they cannot totally separate right from wrong. In the US that’s why we have different sentences for children who commit crimes than adults.
Parents sowing hate hmmm? Then wouldn’t that count the same for Israeli parents that let their children write messages on bombs and rockets about to be deployed, wouldn’t that be the same sort of thing?
As for your percentages on what people ran to Egypt for, they aren’t totally accurate. All of the numbers added up to 100%, and I can hardly believe that people just ran there for 1 thing.

what I saw when I Googled “UNRWA lies” was lots of people on both sides, some saying they are worthless terrorists, some saying that they are just Humanitarian. I really don’t know, so I’m going to back off of them for a bit.

I cannot believe I lost that poll. It was a good one too. Oh well.

I’ll leave you with a few words of an article from my local newspaper, “The Charlotte Observer”, (Charlotte, N.C.), entitles, “Israel vows ‘all-out war”. “Until Monday, Palistinian rocket fire had killed 8 Israeli’s in the past 2 years.”

now the Israeli bombings killed at least 60 civilians. Does this tell you anything?

Mambi Watch,

Offensive language is also considered protected speech.

Scott,

“The Arabs might have initiated the violence but nearly all of the ones who did are dead. You can’t blame a group of people for what their ancestors did.”
You’re ignoring the mindset in the Muslim Arabs that perpetuates this war. It wasn’t their ancestors who shot rockets indiscriminately at civilian targets today, nor yesterday, nor last year. It wasn’t their ancestors who walked into pizza shops and wedding receptions and exploded themselves, attempting to kill as many Jews as possible in the name of Allah while buying a free pass to paradise.

Children are harmed by their poor actions and the poor actions of their parents. That’s just the way life is.

“Then wouldn’t that count the same for Israeli parents that let their children write messages on bombs and rockets about to be deployed, wouldn’t that be the same sort of thing?”
That’s some tasty moral equivalence, right there. A lifetime of hateful learning — encouraged by parents and justified by the Qur’an — is equal to a soldier — who wasn’t taught religious hatred in the Torah and wasn’t encouraged to hate by his parents — writing a message on a bomb? Powerful.

My charmingly witty ipod comment was over-simplistic and snarky. Hamas used the border crash to bring in the Grad rockets they’re using now to reach more Israeli civilians. Many more Gazans bought non-necessities than food, so the breach wasn’t all about food or a humanitarian crisis.

The moral equivalence argument is hogwash. Since when is it wrong to kill more of your enemy? This is how you win a war. Just because those rockets don’t kill a lot of Israelis doesn’t mean they’re any less wrong, any less deadly, any less terrifying, and any less an act of war. One rocket fired at Israel is an act of war, and when Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, the very first rocket that came over the border should’ve been met with overwhelming force.

If Bermuda started lobbing rockets at North Carolina, would you expect your government to stop the threat at any cost, or would you sit back and take it, for days… weeks… months… years…? If I was an Israeli citizen I’d be pissed at my government for putting my family in mortal danger on a daily basis — for years — to appease those trying to kill me.

I’m not ignoring the people who are perpetuating the violence, but you had said, “This argument ignores the fact that Islamic Arabs initiated the aggression”, so that’s how I responded. In a few years nobody will be alive who started the war, and it will just keep going on. If nobody had perpetuated the war, it would be over. It’s Hamas attacks Israel, Israel retaliates, Hamas attacks Israel to retaliate against that… I’m sure you see where this is going.”

“That’s some tasty moral equivalence, right there. A lifetime of hateful learning — encouraged by parents and justified by the Qur’an — is equal to a soldier — who wasn’t taught religious hatred in the Torah and wasn’t encouraged to hate by his parents — writing a message on a bomb? Powerful.”
I found this confusing. Can you clarify a bit?

“charmingly witty” lol

I’m sure that most of the Gaza people bought food as well as anything else they might have gotten.

I’m not saying that the rockets were good or anything, I’m just saying that appropriate force can be used and when you kill about 10 times the civilians in 3 days than they did to you in 2 years, something is wrong with the retaliation methods.

If Bermuda started lobbing rockets at N.C. I would expect the U.S. to invade. If Bermuda looked at the U.S. the wrong way we would probably invade.
The analogy doesn’t really add up.
The Israeli’s have not sat back and taken it. They have retaliated to every major strike against them.

I also am having a hard time understanding the term “moral equivalence”. Sorry.

Scott,

Perpetuation: someone has to end it and win, and if it’s a choice between Islamic Arabs and Israelis, I’m voting for the Israelis; they were wronged, and they’re more in line with Western values.

Clarification: a lifetime of religion-based hate does not equal a vengeful message scrawled on a bomb.

Appropriate force: this isn’t a game of tit for tat, this is about Israel destroying Hamas’s ability to harm any of its citizens. However many people die, whatever amount of force is needed to stop the threat is appropriate force. I would expect nothing less from my government when protecting me, and I would expect nothing less from Israel when protecting its citizens.

Retaliation: the analogy seems appropriate, so I don’t know why you don’t think it adds up. The Israelis may’ve retaliated before, but they haven’t neutralized the threat to their citizens. You wouldn’t stand for living under a constant threat of missile or mortar fire, and neither should the Israelis.

Moral Equivalence: morally equating one thing with another. For example, if someone hits you and you hit that person back, should you be punished in the same way, or would it be morally wrong to punish you the same because you didn’t start it. A moral equivalence argument would treat both actions morally the same, since both people hit each other. So if someone tried to mug you, and you defended yourself by smacking the perp upside the head, you’d both go to jail for assault.

Hey, Carlos, this link was forwarded to me by the Coconut Grove Juggling Exchange. Amazing photos. More amazing that you’re a lone voice practicing real journalism. Accolades are well deserved. Glad someone is out there looking for the real stories. You’re doing everyone a huge service. Keep it up! (And remind me again, why do they call it the “justice” system?)

Hey Viccy,

Good to hear from you again. Thanks for stopping by. How is the writing life?

Donkeyrock,

Ok I get Moral Equivalence now. You explained it very clearly. You have no idea how complicated the wikipedia page on it was.

What are Western Values as defined by you?

The fact that children seem to have enough hate inside them to have any part in any of this, I find it repulsive. I was just saying that it was not just some Muslim fundamentalist.

Appropriate force: “However many people die, whatever amount of force is needed to stop the threat is appropriate force.” The problem is that this isn’t going to stop the threat. It’s just going to make it worse. Do you think anybody in Palestine is going to see Israel as a good country after they blockade it, bomb it, and it looks like they are now going to invade it. Again.

No the analogy was not appropriate, Palestine and Israel have much closer amounts of people than the U.S. and Bermuda.

“You wouldn’t stand for living under a constant threat of missile or mortar fire, and neither should the Israelis.” and neither should the Palestinians.

Scott,

Western values, as defined by me, are individual human rights along with secular government separated from religion. The best example is the US Constitution for government and rights, since it puts the government on par with the citizen, not above him. This constitution is derived from European learning through the last 1000 years (or so) and built on a republic that Rome exemplified until the Caesars twisted it.

Stopping The Threat: In Israel’s quest to reach a peace, land has been given to the enemies who’ve attacked her, appeasement through humanitarian efforts has been ongoing for decades, and she’s shown amazing amounts of restraint in the face of Islamic hatred. Should they care how the Islamic Arabs feel about being attacked after attacking Israel for six decades? No, never. Israel should protect its citizens and eliminate any threat to its safety and existence. And ask yourself, if there was no threat from Gaza, do you think Israel would be attacking Gaza right now? If Gaza never built up its military stockpile, never launched rockets constantly into Israel and never threatened Israel with annihilation, would there be a war at all? This is a very important question for you to answer.

Population similarity is what makes a proper analogy about governmental reaction to aggression? I highly disagree.