Pixiq

Not wanting to sound dismissive, but I am pretty certain that Haiti, under the state of emergency directives in place, do not have laws similar to our first amendment. That being said, it is a shame, but not a crime. You have no idea what goes on down there after the sun goes down.

Haiti is NOT the United States. The people do not have the same rights there that we have here.

Just like you cannot impose our religious or cultural values on other countries, you cannot impose our laws on others countries.

I do appreciate your great information for protecting my rights, and examples of abuses of our freedoms.

The only time I’ve had to deal with Marines was when I was serving in the Navy. There is a football type rivalry between the two services, so in that context, let me just say that I really don’t like Marines. As a veteran, I really hate to see stories like this. As a private citizen that is constantly being told to “support our troops” I’m not sure how to feel about stories like this.
Rob´s last blog ..Custom Camera Strap For Sale On eBay

Those weren’t Haitian marines, they were U.S. Marines, on U.S. soil (the embassy), or at least close to it.

In this particular case, I’m incliined to cut the Marines some slack. They ain’t police or other civilians, and playing nicey-nice with photographers isn’t something they train for, I expect.

Combat troops ain’t cops, nor should they be. They are a blunt force, not a PR agency.

I don’t care if they are in Haiti or on the freaking moon: what kind of American is against freedom of speech?
There’s no excuse for harassment of reporters and no excuse for denying anyone the truth. Do none of you commenters grasp that the purpose of this theft is to deny YOU the truth about what how other countries perceive our actions?

While I tend to share your feelings, you have to remember that as a Marine, his options for disobeying a direct order are more severe than a police officer. Marines don’t have as much wiggle room when ordered to do something they find objectionable, so I can’t blame individual solders.
The Command Officer that ordered it is another story.

@Nemo
Playing nicey nice with photographers is not something they train for, I agree.

They are not trained to arrest photographers, confiscate camera or delete digital media either. How does a lack of training explain what they did?
Rob´s last blog ..Rain In San Diego

The First Amendment is not black letter law. It is a function of morality as it is anything else i.e. it would be immoral to violate anyones right to free speech whether or not they are a citizen of the United States or on American soil, given reasonable parameters.

If these Marines violated this man’s right then what they did was worse than if they had done it here; the reasons for which should be clear.

As noted by Iroc, likely it was an order. Might have been “Shut those photogs down” or something similar, no telling.

You’ll note upon re-reading the article that the photog wasn’t arrested. Since the camera was out of the sight (as best as I can tell from the article) of the photog, exactly who deleted the pix and why are subject to speculation. At a guess, it was either an Intel guy, a PR 9public image?) type, or an officer wearing one of those as an unwanted “second hat”.

Given the behavior of the press of late, it wouldn’t surprise me if some of the troops involved had an axe to grind at members of the press, though, so it might have just been a low-level officer stretching their authority a bit. But that’s all guesswork. Hell, I’m guessing a lot here, so take it with a grain of salt.

But from my experience with Marines, they /are/ trained to use initiative in the course of following their orders, and out of the USA I rather doubt they are terribly concerned with following the Constitution with foreign nationals.

Ed, I think you are stretching the Constitution to apply it on the population and nations of the world, and expecting the USMC to obey the Constitution in all cases.

I think they are just practicing for when they start to patrol US streets, for our own good of course.
Jody´s last blog ..Officer buys groceries for shoplifting suspect

You deciphered all that from that little article from Reporters Without Borders?

It’s seems like some people here believe a free press is only expected in the United States.

A free press is necessary everywhere. And if the Marines are going to be dispatched to another country, they should be the first ones to encourage and ensure that.
Carlos Miller´s last blog ..US Marines seize camera from Haitian journalist

come one just give the hero a break

As an American photographer who has walked in and out of US embassies in a dozen countries… I have NEVER been allowed to take photos of the embassy due to security concerns.

In other order in my experience it is standard practice for the marines who guard the embassies to disallow photography regardless of the occasion.

Even when writing an opinion piece like this one should take more care in researching and presenting a complete picture. There is no mention the viewpoint of the embassy, the marines or any direct quotes from the photographer in question. It’s just a bunch of wild conjecture.

Nemo, I don’t know if that is a statement, a question, or if you just miss the point completely.

Yes, maybe the Marines should come busting my door down to confiscate my computer.

In regards to the constitution, it applies especially so to the US armed forces, read the oath they take. As far as the army goes, they should only be a standing army for 2 years, then they should disband as per the constitution and only be formed again if a declaration of war has been made. Some people take that to apply to the Marines, Navy and Air Force as well.
More on the constitution, it applies to anyone in the US, be they American citizen or not, furthermore it sets out rules and regulations to protect the people from the government – not to guarntee rights to people. I find it horrible that a Canadian like myself knows more about the US constitution than most US citizens. If US embassy ground is US property/soil then the constitution of the US applies, be it in Haiti, Canada or Iraq. Your Marines have an image problem the world over, as does your government, fighting for freedom for a change instead of a corporation might turn that negative perception around.
Jody´s last blog ..Officer buys groceries for shoplifting suspect

Jon is right. I can see a situation where Marines charged with securing a perimeter see an individual taking pictures of potentially weak areas in the line. It’s likely the photographer had no malicious intent, however, the Corporal of the Guard is a young 19-20 year old NCO who is charge with the security of his men and of sovereign US soil in a very tense and lawless situation. Time is a luxury these young men do not have much of and decisions have to be made quickly. Was taking the camera the best decision? No, probably not. Was the decision made to deprive anyone of their rights, I do not think so. It would be interesting to know which pictures were missing. I would bet they were of the Marines and the Consulate and not of the tragic situation going on outside the embassy walls.
By the way, Rob, Marines do not really like sailors either. The exception is our Navy Corpsmen, who, ironically, also do not like sailors.

No, Carlos, that, as I said, was guesswork on my part. It’s based on the hitch I did (USAF), personal knowledge of a Marine friend (10+ years of discussing Marine culture & his personal history there), extensive reading of military history, and reading of MilBlogs (for the feel I get on Mil vs. the Press). But in the end, it was speculation, invited by Iroc’s “They weren’t trained…”

I got your point, Ed. Perhaps you missed mine.

Nicely put, Ken.

Umm I know this is rehashed stuff that most of you folks won’t agree with but US embassies and other govt facilities in foreign countries are valid terrorist targets. Wouldn’t it be a great opportunity for an anti-American group to use the chaos and confusion in Haiti as their opportunity to strike a blow?

The marines are tasked with security of the embassy and may be privy to threat briefings that we have no knowledge of.

I know, I know. Those who sacrifice security for liberty blah, blah, blah…
Johnny Law´s last blog ..If only we could say this

Oh, and Carlos? My main point is still that troopies ain’t cops, trained to Mirandize arrestees and (supposedly) uphold the Constitution in their activities. They’re trained to defend the Constitution rather than uphold it, which is a rather different thing.

Or, to haul out an old quote: “Military justice is to Justice as Military music is to Music”. In either case, it’s a bad substitute, but you take what’s offered, and be thankful when young men trained to kill people and destroy things do neither of them. JMNSHO

RE: “…they should only be a standing army for 2 years, then they should disband as per the constitution and only be formed again if a declaration of war has been made…”

Not recalling reading that in the constitution I decided to look it up. What is says is “To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;”

I would submit that this lacks many of the components you suggest exist.

Jerry

Well that would make sense if the photographer was carrying a gun or a bomb or a bazooka.

But a camera?

The camera is the new gun and the fourth reich in charge of the USA does not like cameras. It’s a pity the majority of people out there (including some who comment here) do not understand we are having the same conversation as a society that the Germans had in the late 1930′s. It shows how stuck up its own ass the US is when some of you lot think everyone is out to get you, what an inflated sense of self-importance you have. Everything is a terrorist threat now is it? Perhaps you need to look back at history and see what the Brits did during the height of the troubles with the IRA, they certainly did not go all Nazi on their citizens like the US federal government currently is. Of course closing the USA’s military bases in 100 plus countries and bringing the troops home (like the constitution says) would go a long way toward stopping the so called “terrorist,” threat, but God forbid anyone in a federal government the world over actually thinks for a change.
Ken, Haiti compared to Iraq or Afganistan are polar opposites and I would question the NCO’s fitness (mental) for the job. People are not trying to rip the gates off the US embassy to get in, its not like they are storming the walls. If they were then perhaps more aggression is needed, not to mention if someone is trying to do recon or case a joint as it may be they certainly would not do it openly, this is not a Hollywood movie. The times I enjoyed working with US troops – when they do not have the seige mentality, that is becoming less common however as your government keeps lowering the standards to join. You should be worried, the majority of US soldiers I have talked to were fine with going round to peoples homes and confiscating firearms, in the US.
Jody´s last blog ..Officer buys groceries for shoplifting suspect

@ Johnny Law
Why do “threat briefings” that only US Marines are privy to seem to involve people with cameras? Where are the reports of people with guns being detained by US Marines?
Rob´s last blog ..Custom Camera Strap For Sale On eBay

lol “blah, blah, blah” Succinct, to the point, nuff said.

I want to reiterate that very bad things happen at night now in Haiti. EVERYONE there is scared shitless at night. The marines are trying to secure the compound from attack from the gangs that pillage for food. The aid organizations now give out food only (or for the most part) at night until one of these gangs manages to locate their position. The main security for these operation are soldiers (Marine, US, or other nationalities), and their job is to PROTECT THE AID GIVERS SO THEY CAN KEEP GIVING OUT AID. Unfortunately, after the gangs find the location, the aid organizations then have to set up field hospitals to help the wounded from the attacks for food. It is a very sad situation and much of the countries population will probably die from either starvation or wounds/infections/disease. Who knows what the marines orders are, but cut them a little slack – it is pretty hellish there.

What does all that have to do with a news photographer?

Are we all missing he point here. Assuming the photography wasn’t on US soil, what gives our troops the right to take someones camera in a foreign country. If we all preaching freedoms and democracy, that is a great why of showing it.

The troops are there for whatever reason and seem to have the Haitian’s government permission, but they should be there for order and protection only.

Imagine the Russian army coming here (let’s assume the US government ask for some help for whatever reason) How would like if they started confiscating cameras, etc.

usually someone with a camera preceeds the one who comes with the gun, bomb, or bazooka. cameras are legitimate security threats in high security zones. as a tourist I have been forbidden to use mine on many occasions near government offices US and foreign, in and near airports, US and foreign embassies, and even in a national cemetery once when I was arrested for photographing the moon over a statue right here in the middle of the USA during open-gate hours. So, no preachy preach please. this is not a unique situation. people intent on doing some sinister plot almost always take lots of pictures of their mark as part of formulating a plan. That is how security personnel view photographers aiming in sensitive areas.

Carlos,

What I am trying to say is that the marines on duty might not really want to interfere of otherwise cause harm to a photographer, but in their mission to protect either the compound, or aid workers, or something that we are not privvy to (perhaps the locations of troops standing around), they were ordered to, or thought it a good idea to, make certain that those images that were deleted were not published or got into the wrong hands. It is a very scary situation down there. These guys are KIDS fer gosh sakes. Why NOT give them the benefit of the doubt. I am all for photographers rights, as you have seen me post before. The situation down there is a war zone and EVERYONE is scared shitless. Had I not spoken directly to US aid worker who was down there for 2 weeks, on Friday, my posting would have been very different.

Buying memory is such a chore… You have to search online for prices, filter through which ones are genuine, around a bunch of stores,compare prices, finally buy your memory, and then constantly pray that the price doesn’t drop in the next 2 weeks or so.I’ve been f’d over by rapid price drops in the past… especially this one time when I bought a Micro SD card for my DS flashcard at what apparently was a steal, only to later see that it fell by $5 in a week’s time.(Submitted by PostNext for R4i Nintendo DS.)

Dave, if you were in a public area while attempting to photograph government buildings, then your rights were violated. As for taking photographs in airports, I’ve done that on several occasions, and no one really cared. Of course, I didn’t point it at any sensitive areas like the security lines. As for being busted for taking a photograph of the moon over a statue in a national cemetery, that’s a ridiculous situation in which your rights were grossly violated. I cannot see a national cemetery becoming a target, significant or otherwise, for terrorists.

You totally missed Edin’s point, which was that the First Amendment is the legal manifestation of a value (or moral, if you prefer) that is absolutely fundamental to freedom and democracy. That does not change when you leave the jurisdiction that the First Amendment covers. If you oppose the values of freedom and democracy, you’re a Bad Guy. Am I close, EdinMiami?

Of course, your interpretation is the one used by all the American TLAs that operate on foreign ground, so YMMV…

IDon’t:

I still say it’s taken too far. I don’t expect troops to act as if those in a combat zone have 4th Amemendment rights when they are doing house-to-house ops, nor 5th when interrogating hostiles, or the 2nd when disarming insurgents.

It’s not the job of the military to impose the Bill of Rights wherever they go.

What do you mean by “TLA”?

Dave -
I would be curious as to which terrorist attacks have been been preceded by photography? It’s already been determined that there is absolutely zero evidence that any attackers on American soil have ever photographed their target first, nor can I find any reference to any other targets internationally. Do you have links to references in which terrorists or those with nefarious plans were taking photos prior to attacks? The only ones I can find are usually a national military doing so.

Actually I posted several links in another discussion on this site that show evidence of terrorists photographing attack sites in the US.
Johnny Law´s last blog ..My Saturday Night

I wonder how you would feel if the security officers in the embassy of some country stepped onto the sidewalk outside their embassy in Washington DC and confiscated an American reporter’s camera and deleted images of their embassy from it?
Though, judging by what’s happening these days an American policeman might do that first!