Pixiq

Three cheers (and more) to you, Rebekka and to Bob Krist for airing this topic so vividly; lifting up the stones and letting in a cleansing light on those who use this exploitative technique.

That process of re-education also needs to take place with some 'opportunist' fellow professionals too; the rot comes both from without and within. Some years ago I cooperated (?) with a UK wildlife photographer whose background was in marketing. He realised that effective promotion of his own name and realization of his fantasy could be made by association with the reputations of others. His shots would be in the book, too and others might be impressed by the company he kept. I had helped him previously (he had enthusiasm) and this time supplied spreads of macro shots and text for a couple of his publications in preparation.

No complimentary copy of either book was sent though others he regarded as more important might have received one. I reminded him several times but then it just gets embarrassing. Stupid, yes, but I have always tried to be as generous and encouraging with others as people have been with me. That photographer had come out to Italy stayed with me and we went for a few long walks. My enthusiasm for ideas and projects inevitably got carried away; mistake. He went incommunicado for six months or more until I noticed titles being advertised that we had discussed as joint projects. I contacted him and bluntly expressed my views: he claimed to be ‘unable’ to remember the substance of our talks, or the subsequent follow-up emails. The ideas had appeared out of the blue - he was a ‘creative’ after all. He then had the gall to ask me to write a book on close-up photography for ‘his’ new publishing company (another joint venture we had discussed)! I helpfully explained exactly where and how far he could insert that offer: he went and found another taker. So, Rebekka you are not the only one to have those momentary lapses; we live, we learn…

You're far more diplomatic than I am. I operated a printing company in years past and was the recipient of requests from "Users" like that frequently. "No" can make you a better person.

Thank you for calling it like it is. I spent years as an ASMP member (and state chapter board member) attempting to introduce business modules into education and continue the fight for actually getting paid for our work. As I continue to witness the demise of photography as a profession I am stunned. Many of today's up and comers willingly give away their work, post to websites without ever reading terms & conditions which spell out a rights grab and generally are willing to pay to shoot for others making a profit.

I will never forget an exchange with the photo director of Women's World magazine in 2003. In brief:

I was asked to photograph a woman for a series on working professionals. I was to also take the time to hire a stylist (the magazine would pay, but I had to book). I submitted a bid based on shooting fee, production (time/effort to hire the stylist), expenses. The editor balked at my bid refusing to pay me for having to hire the stylist. So, I resubmitted the bid after shifting numbers. Same response.

Finally, after a number of emails and phone calls I received this response:

(paraphrase): "I have worked for this magazine for 10 years and this is what we have always paid for photography."

While I was tempted to ask if she still got paid the same salary as when she began, I knew it was a lost cause. So I kept my emailed response to this:

"And that is exactly my point."

I never heard back.

Now every time i buy a photography book,i will wonder if the artists have been paid(properly)or not.
Is there a way to know,so that i don't buy from stingy publishers ?

I think you might be taking this a bit too personally.

I work at an ad agency. We regularly hire contractors on web programming projects. I quite often have to say say, "Thanks for the estimate, but we can't afford you" - and it's far from bullshit.

The truth is, by the time we're looking for outside contractors, we already have a set project budget. If I get an estimate outside of that budget - it's nothing personal. Simply a matter of dollars and cents.

In fact, even when contractors are willing to come down on their estimates, I usually go somewhere else. Simply because I've learned that projects go much better when everyone feels like they're being paid fairly. Even if I could beat someone up over price, it's never worth it in the end.

If the value you've set for your work doesn't match up with the value someone else assigns to your work, they're not necessarily trying to screw you.

I'll add that the photographer at our agency was in the same situation as your proposed book deal a while back. An author asked to profile him in a book of notable photographers, without any compensation. Our photographer happily agreed. He makes his living shooting advertising photography, not selling books - so there was no threat of a book deal cutting into his revenues. And now, a couple years later, having his profile in a book is a great tool to help justify his day rates.

Certainly, there are people who will try and screw you out of the fruits of your creative talent. But if you spend your life taking offense every time someone undervalues your work, I'm afraid you'll have little time for anything else.

AtOurGates, Your credibility was lost at "I work at an ad agency."

I get requests like this from time to time. My response is very simple. If YOU'RE getting paid, then I expect to get paid. Period.

Rebekka, as was noted before, “You're far more diplomatic than I.”I had some industrial images stolen and used in a trade publication. I called them on it but was not able to get cash compensation for it but was able to get two quarter page ads run for the company I worked for who the images were taken for. At least they were honest and admitted their error.
Another time I did a large research project for the automotive aftermarket and tried to sell the information. One company said they liked the info and like you offered me copies of the books that it would be included in. My response was thank you but unfortunately I cannot eat books.
Yes folks want to make money from other people’s efforts but not pay them for it but get paid themselves.

Hello At Our Gates -

This is a very simple matter. First, please advise us if you get paid for your work.

If you do get paid - and I imagine you do - why should we be expected to work for you and NOT get paid. That sounds like an exploitive business relationship.

Your suggestion that we're all taking this too personally is - in itself - insulting.

I can't speak for AtOurGates, but I would like to comment on what seems to me to be a recurring oversimplification.

For the record, I'm a software developer, and I do get paid for my work. If someone asked me to do a job for free, of course I'd turn it down. But that's not a very good analogy. A much better comparison would be the licensing of existing product.

Let's say that I specialized in writing a variety of small utilities which I sell for a reasonable fee on my website. What if a major software magazine comes along and offers to include one of my utilities in their Best-of-the-Year bonus CD on condition that it be distributed as freeware, but with assurance of credit and a link to my site.

Am I going to scoff and feel like they're trying to exploit me? Or might I conclude that this has the potential of significantly increasing exposure and sales of other products? Whether or not I choose to accept their offer depends on cost/benefit analysis, and if I feel it's more advantageous for me to continue selling it on my own, then so be it. But I'm not going to get all bent out of shape because somebody wanted something for nothing.

Each case differs, and I'm not saying there aren't unscrupulous people out there trying to screw over the photographers; I'm sure there are. But there are also projects with genuinely tight budgets who are understandably trying to get by with the absolutely minimal expense, and it's ok if their needs and yours don't align. State your price, and if they don't call back, sleep peacefully.

Rebekka,

Great article, very well written. Like others I completely agree. While people like AtOurGates may have their own situations where their actions are justifiable, we often encounter people who are not simply abiding by budget constraints. In fact, if that really is your reason, sometimes just adding a few words to your final sentence to us could make all the difference.

"Sorry, we don't have the budget for your asking price" is much colder than

"I really wish we could afford your asking price, as we really like your work. My superiors handed down strict budget guidelines and unfortunately you fall out of that area, but we will absolutely consider you for future projects where it might work out better for everyone financially"

Sure, both are cold, but at least you are given a reason, instead of being hung to dry.

Anyway, this post inspired me today to write my own 2 cents on the matter on my own blog, so without sounding like I'm completely plugging myself, it's located here if anyone is interested: http://bit.ly/9KgPEt

Most of the people still believe that they can take pictures for free and that those don´t involve any kind of work. That happens everywhere...when will they learn? :-/

AtOurGates - in the instance Rebekka cites it's not that the guy could not afford her estimate (he after all accepted it in the end)- he was trying to get away with not paying at all. Which does seem to me to fall into the category of trying to screw someone over.

Also, any one who sets a budget that does not allow for realistic payments to contributors/contractors is either misguided or trying it on.

someone linked to an article on facebook, it appears to be a photography studio:
http://slyhorsestudio.com/blog/archives/366
it's your article here, but i don't see a link or credit to you, and i didn't see how to leave a comment, so i emailed the webmaster.

I've experienced both sides of this. I was approached by a marketing agency in the US who were more than happy to pay what I considered to be a very reasonable price for one of my photos, and then had the decency to contact me again for a further use. They were professional and totally understood my position.

The opposite was an individual who was writing a book and wanted a number of images, couldnt afford to pay me , but would def give me credit against each image. Bearing in mind he charges upwards of $2500 a day I have no doubt he was hoping my ego would kick in !!

I'm with you on this one Rebekka.

I've worked at an ad agency, and I've been a vendor for agencies for years. Advertising is a for profit business. They make money by placing a mark up on everything they do... including your work that they got for cheap.

Because agencies need 19 people involved in every singe decision no matter how small, they end up billing their client more for merely finding your image than what they pay for the image itself. Not only that, but the naked plagiarism runs rampant in that industry adds insult to injury. They'll pay half for someone to mimic you and still charge that enormous mark up.

But as long as someone somewhere is willing to work for free and have no problem making derivative work, this will keep happening.

Everyone needs to protect and enhance the integrity of their profession, it benefits all of us in the long run.

I've worked at an ad agency, and I've been a vendor for agencies for years. Advertising is a for profit business. They make money by placing a mark up on everything they do... including your work that they got for cheap.

Because agencies need 19 people involved in every singe decision no matter how small, they end up billing their client more for merely finding your image than what they pay for the image itself. Not only that, but the naked plagiarism runs rampant in that industry adds insult to injury. They'll pay half for someone to mimic you and still charge that enormous mark up.

But as long as someone somewhere is willing to work for free and have no problem making derivative work, this will keep happening.

Everyone needs to protect and enhance the integrity of their profession, it benefits all of us in the long run.

Rebekka,
In my 20 years supplying decor and creativity for special events I have seen and heard the entire playbook, from flattery to outright begging.

They want my best pieces from my hard-earned inventory, they want my most creative thoughts as they pick my brain for ideas, they want the use of my finest equipment when I deliver, set up, and strike, and the benefit of my years of experience as I negotiate the problems that pop up along the way.

With a smile and great enthusiasm they tell me that I can put up a sign at the event, I will be noted in the program, and even linked to on their website! It will be so great that next year we can do it all over again.

I too am learning to say NO! It was quite liberating when I realized that they need me very much, but I don't need them.

"I swear-by my life and my love of it-that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

Appreciate this article and I certainly can relate. Most publications and graphic design companies outright offer to pay me and I usually agree to the financial terms they offer. Recently, however, I was contacted by a publication claiming they have no budget. Hmmm...if they have no budget, then how does their publication get printed? While the publication was indeed small, it surely had a budget. I replied with a nominal fee and explained how my camera equipment, processing software, and powerful computer were not free (I didn't mention the countless hours put into learning photography and processing skills to achieve the photo they said they absolutely loved).

Their response was they would have to pass. Two days later, they came back and agreed to pay the fee. Maybe they thought I would have a change of heart, as though I'm a bad guy for expecting payment.

I'm curious as to how one would handle a copyright violation. I found a Romanian publication using one of my astrophotos without my permission and without payment.